Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - oldviolin - Nov 20, 2017 - 7:02am
 
Visual Reference & Creative Catalysts - Proclivities - Nov 20, 2017 - 7:00am
 
Things You Thought Today - islander - Nov 20, 2017 - 6:58am
 
Let's make some Music - oldviolin - Nov 20, 2017 - 6:58am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - islander - Nov 20, 2017 - 6:56am
 
Health Care - sirdroseph - Nov 20, 2017 - 6:31am
 
Democratic Party - aflanigan - Nov 20, 2017 - 6:28am
 
Counting with Pictures - Proclivities - Nov 20, 2017 - 6:18am
 
Celebrity Deaths - meower - Nov 20, 2017 - 5:40am
 
Comics! - Antigone - Nov 20, 2017 - 5:34am
 
Beer - ScottFromWyoming - Nov 19, 2017 - 11:02pm
 
What are you listening to now? - kurtster - Nov 19, 2017 - 5:39pm
 
Beta player only playing to left channel? - CaffeineIsMyDrug - Nov 19, 2017 - 5:19pm
 
Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - miamizsun - Nov 19, 2017 - 4:44pm
 
The Image Post - Red_Dragon - Nov 19, 2017 - 4:24pm
 
Addiction: I would appreciate your thoughts... - kurtster - Nov 19, 2017 - 1:55pm
 
Name My Band - haresfur - Nov 19, 2017 - 11:35am
 
Sex - miamizsun - Nov 19, 2017 - 9:46am
 
Trump - hayduke2 - Nov 19, 2017 - 9:26am
 
Revelation,Armageddon, the end of the world (we can stop ... - SeriousLee - Nov 19, 2017 - 9:07am
 
Derplahoma Questions and Points of Interest - miamizsun - Nov 19, 2017 - 7:39am
 
Stone Temple Pilots - SeriousLee - Nov 19, 2017 - 7:23am
 
Celebrity News - ScottFromWyoming - Nov 18, 2017 - 9:14pm
 
NETFLIX - Alexandra - Nov 18, 2017 - 7:20pm
 
Sunrise, Sunset - Coaxial - Nov 18, 2017 - 7:05pm
 
Annoying stuff. not things that piss you off, just annoyi... - miamizsun - Nov 18, 2017 - 1:49pm
 
The Chomsky / Zinn Reader - R_P - Nov 18, 2017 - 11:37am
 
Questions. - SeriousLee - Nov 18, 2017 - 3:28am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Nov 17, 2017 - 11:02pm
 
RadioParadise HD: API/webservice for integration in XBMC? - donfulano - Nov 17, 2017 - 5:53pm
 
Baseball, anyone? - Prodigal_SOB - Nov 17, 2017 - 3:31pm
 
Guns - Red_Dragon - Nov 17, 2017 - 1:56pm
 
Today in History - Proclivities - Nov 17, 2017 - 1:31pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - ScottFromWyoming - Nov 17, 2017 - 1:18pm
 
Would you drive this car for dating with ur girl? - KurtfromLaQuinta - Nov 17, 2017 - 12:47pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - the_jake - Nov 17, 2017 - 12:34pm
 
RP Daily Trivia Challenge - Proclivities - Nov 17, 2017 - 11:21am
 
Infinite cat - Prodigal_SOB - Nov 17, 2017 - 10:06am
 
Bad Poetry - oldviolin - Nov 17, 2017 - 9:38am
 
Celebrity Face Recognition - Proclivities - Nov 17, 2017 - 9:18am
 
Things that make you go Hmmmm..... - islander - Nov 17, 2017 - 7:33am
 
What Makes You Laugh? - lily34 - Nov 17, 2017 - 7:17am
 
Media Bias - aflanigan - Nov 17, 2017 - 7:13am
 
SHOUT OUTS ACROSS THE WORLD - miamizsun - Nov 17, 2017 - 7:10am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - miamizsun - Nov 17, 2017 - 6:51am
 
songs that ROCK! - miamizsun - Nov 17, 2017 - 6:47am
 
Anti-War - miamizsun - Nov 17, 2017 - 5:04am
 
Republican Party - miamizsun - Nov 17, 2017 - 3:34am
 
Japanese Unique Way of Arrangement of Flowers - haresfur - Nov 17, 2017 - 1:08am
 
Tech & Science - miamizsun - Nov 16, 2017 - 6:36pm
 
Australia has Disappeared - haresfur - Nov 16, 2017 - 6:14pm
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - haresfur - Nov 16, 2017 - 2:20pm
 
What makes you smile? - Steely_D - Nov 16, 2017 - 12:03pm
 
What Did You Do Today? - kurtster - Nov 16, 2017 - 10:47am
 
Favorite Quotes - black321 - Nov 16, 2017 - 10:04am
 
Best Song Comments. - ScottN - Nov 16, 2017 - 7:27am
 
That's good advice - skyguy - Nov 16, 2017 - 7:27am
 
Firefox - black321 - Nov 16, 2017 - 6:00am
 
OUR CATS!! - sirdroseph - Nov 16, 2017 - 5:16am
 
Johnnyswim - miamizsun - Nov 16, 2017 - 4:19am
 
Now Playing on RP... - miamizsun - Nov 16, 2017 - 4:05am
 
How's the weather? - islander - Nov 15, 2017 - 7:30pm
 
Immigration - Red_Dragon - Nov 15, 2017 - 9:25am
 
Can you *sort of* choose genre when caching? - meower - Nov 15, 2017 - 9:04am
 
Things that are just WRONG - Proclivities - Nov 15, 2017 - 8:38am
 
Earthquake - miamizsun - Nov 15, 2017 - 8:33am
 
Russia - aflanigan - Nov 15, 2017 - 8:12am
 
All Things Jewish - aflanigan - Nov 15, 2017 - 7:40am
 
No more commercials please - Proclivities - Nov 15, 2017 - 6:29am
 
Climate Change - R_P - Nov 14, 2017 - 3:38pm
 
HALF A WORLD - oldviolin - Nov 14, 2017 - 9:03am
 
Strips, cartoons, illustrations - R_P - Nov 13, 2017 - 8:27pm
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Nov 13, 2017 - 6:39pm
 
Crazy conspiracy theories - Steely_D - Nov 13, 2017 - 6:28pm
 
Youtube Song Comments - oldviolin - Nov 13, 2017 - 5:35pm
 
Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Taxes, Taxes, Taxes (and Taxes) Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 68, 69, 70  Next
Post to this Topic
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 11:46am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

It's clear that almost nobody (or literally nobody) fully understood the "mathematics of complex risk management" in the years leading up to 2008. The fact that stocks are off to the races again doesn't really bring me comfort.

 
Good points.  But then American voting citizens were and still are fond of the mortgage interest tax deductions which strikes me as ludicrous.   

The US central bank has a dual mandate: price stability AND employment. Presumably literate Americans can read that most other rich western country central banks have adopted a single mandate — price stability — since the 1980s.    There is a vast literature on why central banks and monetary policy should not target employment.

US voters support the lowest excise taxes on diesel and gasoline among the rich OECD countries.  Is this good risk management?   The vast majority of economic recessions in the post-war period are correlated/preceded by spiking fuel prices (including late 2008).  High excise taxes would reduce if not eliminate that risk.

Is an obesity epidemic an indication of good public policy risk management?   Does the availability and efficacy of modern pain killers justify decisions to become obese?  

American low density suburbs are blowing back in terms of poor health, low social capital and in some regions, far higher probabilities of devastating, destructive wildfires.   Good risk management?   
FWIW, I could do the same for Canada.  The wildfires that BC experienced this summer highlight once again to what extent for rural BCers, the outdoors and the semi-wilderness is a picture postcard experience and that their understanding of natural processes and watershed ecology is poor to say the least.  Yet, like most of North America, tobacco, alcohol and automobiles firmly remain familiar, family-friendly ways that we hurt and kill ourselves.  

As for the current stock market valuations....  at first glance, I would agree but that is really another discussion.


ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Nov 6, 2017 - 10:30am

 westslope wrote:

With all due respect black321, but you do not understand financial risk management.  

I agree that venture capital markets can often look like zero-sum capitalism at its worst but adults can always choose to stay out of the venture capital and financial derivative markets. 

The big problem is that many individuals with insufficient education (particularly numeracy) and experience allow personal ambitions commonly called 'greed' by lay people to push them into markets they do not understand.  

Being able to do simple arithmetic does not mean that one understands the mathematics of complex risk management.  
Our freemarket capitalist system has outperformed all other systems precisely because it manages uncertainty and risk better than any other system by a wide margin.  These freemarket capitalist nation states have built more generous welfare states than anything else observed throughout history.
 
It's clear that almost nobody (or literally nobody) fully understood the "mathematics of complex risk management" in the years leading up to 2008. The fact that stocks are off to the races again doesn't really bring me comfort.
black321
See For Yourself
black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: Nov 6, 2017 - 8:59am

 westslope wrote:

With all due respect black321, but you do not understand financial risk management.  

I agree that venture capital markets can often look like zero-sum capitalism at its worst but adults can always choose to stay out of the venture capital and financial derivative markets. 

The big problem is that many individuals with insufficient education (particularly numeracy) and experience allow personal ambitions commonly called 'greed' by lay people to push them into markets they do not understand.  

Being able to do simple arithmetic does not mean that one understands the mathematics of complex risk management.  
Our freemarket capitalist system has outperformed all other systems precisely because it manages uncertainty and risk better than any other system by a wide margin.  These freemarket capitalist nation states have built more generous welfare states than anything else observed throughout history.

 

with derivates, not necessarily zero sum, but in aggregate for the economy, yes.  regardless, dont think that was what you were talking about...so carry on.
R_P
Ni dieu ni maître
R_P Avatar



Posted: Nov 4, 2017 - 2:01pm

 westslope wrote:
I agree that venture capital markets can often look like zero-sum capitalism at its worst but adults can always choose to stay out of the venture capital and financial derivative markets.  (...)
 
If only...
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Nov 4, 2017 - 1:12pm

 black321 wrote:

used to speculate...creates a system where there is no longer just one winner and loser, but potentially multiple winners, or losers

 
With all due respect black321, but you do not understand financial risk management.  

I agree that venture capital markets can often look like zero-sum capitalism at its worst but adults can always choose to stay out of the venture capital and financial derivative markets. 

The big problem is that many individuals with insufficient education (particularly numeracy) and experience allow personal ambitions commonly called 'greed' by lay people to push them into markets they do not understand.  

Being able to do simple arithmetic does not mean that one understands the mathematics of complex risk management.  
Our freemarket capitalist system has outperformed all other systems precisely because it manages uncertainty and risk better than any other system by a wide margin.  These freemarket capitalist nation states have built more generous welfare states than anything else observed throughout history.


black321
See For Yourself
black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: Nov 3, 2017 - 6:22am

 westslope wrote:

2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.   Or financial derivatives used to manage risk?  

Point being?   

 
used to speculate...creates a system where there is no longer just one winner and loser, but potentially multiple winners, or losers
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Nov 2, 2017 - 3:00pm

 black321 wrote:

zero sum?  Haven't you heard of derivatives?

 
2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.   Or financial derivatives used to manage risk?  

Point being?   
black321
See For Yourself
black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: Nov 2, 2017 - 1:05pm

 westslope wrote:
Such is life in a nation that embraces zero-sum capitalism.  

 
zero sum?  Haven't you heard of derivatives?
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Nov 2, 2017 - 12:48pm

Mortgage interest deductions are still in place.   Wow......   So what is the public policy reason for this?  Right, there is none, just plain old-fashioned political rent seeking.  And those beautiful memories from the 2008 financial crisis.  

Excise taxes on dirty fossil fuels will remain the lowest among the rich OECD countries.  

No value-added sales tax (VAT) though I suppose that is understandable as the Trump brain trust was referring to VAT taxes as an unfair trade advantage early in his mandate.  That is absolute nonsense but then American politics appears to have been taken over by the incompetent. 

Elsewhere in the background, huge increases in military spending are forecast.   Trump is treating the nomination process for the Federal Reserve chair like a reality TV show.  Trump was against low interest policy while campaigning and then changed his mind to embrace low interest rates as a good thing.  So presumably the ignorant narcissist will prefer a dovish Fed chair.  Just in.... Yup, he nominated dovish team player Jerome H. Powell.   

Powell does not have degree in economics which means two things 1) there is lots of stuff, he will have trouble understanding; 2) he runs a lower risk of embarrassing Trump.  
 
Let's add it up:

Deficit-financed increases in public expenditures + low interest rates or Expansionary fiscal policy plus expansionary monetary policy (despite the fact that the US economy is near full employment).  
 
The US economy should roar.  Energy prices will climb.  Higher oil prices will stimulate more deep tight oil exploration and development in the continental USA.  This will help will "energy independence" — a goal that is popular with decent, regular folks.

There will be lots of opportunities to privatize social wealth.  Who trusts government these days anyhow?  

Eventually it will come crashing down as it did in the early 1980s but smart, good, successful people should have enough private wealth accumulated that it will not matter for them.  There will be lots of 'losers'.   

Such is life in a nation that embraces zero-sum capitalism.  


islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Nov 2, 2017 - 12:26pm

 black321 wrote:
Doesn't seem awful, but I'm sure it's not gonna help the deficit.  Not a fan of the estate tax cut and would have liked to see cap gains above a certain threshold taxed as income to offset the corp tax cut.

House Republicans today release the details of their plans to overhaul the U.S. tax code. (See the full House bill and House summary. ) Here is a rundown of key provisions in the proposal:

BUSINESS

  • Chops the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% permanently, not temporarily as was earlier considered.
  • Businesses would lose the ability to deduct certain executive compensation above $1 million, which they can now do for performance-based pay.
  • Tax-exempt bonds could no longer be used to build professional sports stadiums.
  • Sets a top 25% rate for pass-through businesses such as S corporations and partnerships. The plan includes complicated guardrails that limit people from turning what would otherwise be wage income taxed at up to 39.6% into business income taxed at a lower rate.
  • New limits on corporate interest deductions, which would be capped at 30% of earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, which is a measure of cash flow. Real-estate firms and small businesses would be exempt from that limit.
  • Creates a new one-time tax on overseas profits set at 12% for cash holdings and 5% for illiquid holdings, a provision meant to force companies to repatriate overseas profits. Creates a new 10% tax on U.S. companies’ high-profit foreign subsidiaries, calculated on a global basis, but active overseas profits wouldn’t otherwise be taxed.

INDIVIDUALS

  • Reduces seven individual income tax brackets to four at 12%, 25%, 35% and 39.6%.
  • Top tax bracket set for married couples earning $1,000,000 per year and individuals earning $500,000. Bottom tax bracket extends up to $90,000 for couples and $45,000 for individuals.
  • The proposal doesn’t change the top tax rates on capital gains and dividend income.
  • The bill would preserve head-of-household filing status, often used by single parents. The standard deduction for that group is midway between individuals and married couples.
  • Nearly doubles individual standard deduction to $24,400 for married couples and $12,200 for singles in 2018.
  • Increases child tax credit from $1,000 in 2017 to $1,600 plus $300 for each taxpayer, spouse and non-child dependents.
  • Places new limit on home mortgage-interest deduction at loans up to $500,000, down from $1,000,000, but existing loans would be grandfathered.
  • The estate-tax exemption, set for $5.6 million per person and $11.2 million per married couple, would double immediately. The tax would be repealed starting in 2024.
  • Keeps 401(k) existing plan rules largely intact.
  • Repeals the alternative minimum tax
  • Repeals an itemized deduction for medical expenses.
  • Repeals the tax credit for adoption.
  • Repeals the deduction for student-loan interest.


 
It is interesting - the shift in the range of the brackets means less taxation up to 90k$ (married) and an increased standard deduction. A lot fewer people will probably bother with itemizing. I'm going to have to look at how much I pay myself and adjust where I shift from salary to pass through income. This will also be complicated because the other business owner has a minority share, so the math will get tricky, but it's worth it to get the 20% rate on pass through vs. the 25% on salary. I'm happy to see the end of the AMT, but killing student loan deductions seems pretty bad for those who use it (don't we still want to encourage education?).  

The estate tax stuff is a joke of a giveaway to the richest of the rich. I have a pretty good friend who was bitching about this when his dad died last year. Turns out his dad's estate was almost $2 million, he was stunned when he found out that he owed NOTHING on that, without doing any kind of planning or taking any effort to shield it.  He's been in Italy since June...



black321
See For Yourself
black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: Nov 2, 2017 - 10:55am

Doesn't seem awful, but I'm sure it's not gonna help the deficit.  Not a fan of the estate tax cut and would have liked to see cap gains above a certain threshold taxed as income to offset the corp tax cut.

House Republicans today release the details of their plans to overhaul the U.S. tax code. (See the full House bill and House summary. ) Here is a rundown of key provisions in the proposal:

BUSINESS

  • Chops the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% permanently, not temporarily as was earlier considered.
  • Businesses would lose the ability to deduct certain executive compensation above $1 million, which they can now do for performance-based pay.
  • Tax-exempt bonds could no longer be used to build professional sports stadiums.
  • Sets a top 25% rate for pass-through businesses such as S corporations and partnerships. The plan includes complicated guardrails that limit people from turning what would otherwise be wage income taxed at up to 39.6% into business income taxed at a lower rate.
  • New limits on corporate interest deductions, which would be capped at 30% of earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, which is a measure of cash flow. Real-estate firms and small businesses would be exempt from that limit.
  • Creates a new one-time tax on overseas profits set at 12% for cash holdings and 5% for illiquid holdings, a provision meant to force companies to repatriate overseas profits. Creates a new 10% tax on U.S. companies’ high-profit foreign subsidiaries, calculated on a global basis, but active overseas profits wouldn’t otherwise be taxed.

INDIVIDUALS

  • Reduces seven individual income tax brackets to four at 12%, 25%, 35% and 39.6%.
  • Top tax bracket set for married couples earning $1,000,000 per year and individuals earning $500,000. Bottom tax bracket extends up to $90,000 for couples and $45,000 for individuals.
  • The proposal doesn’t change the top tax rates on capital gains and dividend income.
  • The bill would preserve head-of-household filing status, often used by single parents. The standard deduction for that group is midway between individuals and married couples.
  • Nearly doubles individual standard deduction to $24,400 for married couples and $12,200 for singles in 2018.
  • Increases child tax credit from $1,000 in 2017 to $1,600 plus $300 for each taxpayer, spouse and non-child dependents.
  • Places new limit on home mortgage-interest deduction at loans up to $500,000, down from $1,000,000, but existing loans would be grandfathered.
  • The estate-tax exemption, set for $5.6 million per person and $11.2 million per married couple, would double immediately. The tax would be repealed starting in 2024.
  • Keeps 401(k) existing plan rules largely intact.
  • Repeals the alternative minimum tax
  • Repeals an itemized deduction for medical expenses.
  • Repeals the tax credit for adoption.
  • Repeals the deduction for student-loan interest.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 12:13pm

I do not agree with tying taxes to specific public programs unless user fees are being charged.

(In passing good post islander.)

Folks, it would make good sense to reduce corporate income taxes but really you need to shift more of the tax burden to consumption.   To consumers.

For the record, the USA is the ONLY rich OECD country that does not make use of value-added sales taxes.  And once again, Americans pay the lowest excise taxes on fossil fuels among the rich OECD countries despite the known impacts on health and morbidity of automobiles and associated pollution.

What is wrong with Americans?   People outside the USA love your experts and scientists but Americans make a point of deliberately ignoring them.   Why the self-loathing anti-science, anti-data populism?  
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Gemini


Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 8:26am

I'm sure that lots of people have feelings about this. Last year, Philadelphia introduced a controversial tax on sugary beverages (soda mainly) in the city of Philadelphia. A similar bill was struck down in Manhattan the year before.  Because of the tax, 2,000 new Pre-Kindergarten/Head start  slots were created.

This morning, 2,000 children who would not have had access to quality Pre-K in Philadelphia started school. This is easily two full HS graduating classes.

If you're going to drink soda, please buy it in Philadelphia


sirdroseph
Endeavor to Perservere
sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Sagittarius
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: May 11, 2017 - 4:17am

Exempting themselves from the effects of their own Healthcare Billshit is the ultimate Treason. Taxation, without Representation, baby.













Amen to that, I remember saying the same thing in 2009 when they were pimping the present piece of crap health care legislation which I am sure you did too, right? ;-) Seriously though, we will never get true health care reform until they walk our walk and quit legislating from a bubble of privilege.


islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: May 10, 2017 - 10:09pm

 Isabeau wrote:


{#Yes}  Before Tinkle-down, rates on the wealthiest were 90 - 80 %. In order to avoid taxes, they had to invest. Not volunteer, but had to.
that pushed growth, innovation and wages parallel with productivity. The current 'volunteer' bit isn't working; blind eyes to offshore tax havens do not fix an increasing deficit caused by borrowing to make WAR. There is never any money for benefitting The People, yet the Political Aristocracy has deemed taxes are to support them, not the peasants.

Exempting themselves from the effects of their own Healthcare Billshit is the ultimate Treason. Taxation, without Representation, baby.
 
Whoa there.  Yes the top marginal rate has been as high as 90%, but that was only on really high levels of income. There were also more deductions allowed at the time, and anyone with that kind of income (a million dollars went a lot further back then) would never have paid tax on it. This is a perfect example of L8s premise that if you set the rates too high, then people will avoid it by whatever means necessary. Also, my point of it's a lot more complicated than just the rate - exemptions, deductions and opportunities for shelters and other stuff makes the rate somewhat arbitrary. 

I'm a pretty good pay your taxes kind of guy and I'm getting a bit uncomfortable with an effective rate just over 20%. If the marginal rates pushed my effective rate much higher, I'd probably start spending some time on other tax minimization options.

We're mixing a lot of grievances here, but voluntary re-investment is never about volunteering to give away money. Business is always about making something or doing something, and it almost always has the goal of making money. I've just kicked off a new venture that will be a lot of fun and is aligned with my interests, but if there weren't profit in it I wouldn't be doing it. 
Isabeau
peep
Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: May 10, 2017 - 4:33pm

 islander wrote:


We are in strong agreement here.

On taxes, I'm just saying it's all a lot more complicated that rates. I do think the rates are relevant in that you need to have some method to collect revenue, but  beyond that I think saying that raising or lowering rates as a method to increase (or decrease depending on which side of the argument you are on) is a just one of many factors. 

It's sort of like saying "eating Twinkies will make you feel better". Well yes, sort of, breifly. but if you eat too many you'll be sick, if you never touch one, you'll miss part of the meaning in the movie Zombieland. And if you say "Reducing Twinkie consumption is the key to good health", you are probably right, but are missing a lot more pieces to the puzzle.  -Islander, master of the bad/confusing analogy. 


 

{#Yes}  Before Tinkle-down, rates on the wealthiest were 90 - 80 %. In order to avoid taxes, they had to invest. Not volunteer, but had to.
that pushed growth, innovation and wages parallel with productivity. The current 'volunteer' bit isn't working; blind eyes to offshore tax havens do not fix an increasing deficit caused by borrowing to make WAR. There is never any money for benefitting The People, yet the Political Aristocracy has deemed taxes are to support them, not the peasants.

Exempting themselves from the effects of their own Healthcare Billshit is the ultimate Treason. Taxation, without Representation, baby.

islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: May 10, 2017 - 2:53pm

 Lazy8 wrote:

And I'm still not sure what you're responding to, but it isn't just about improving the economy. High rates of taxation drive companies to do unproductive things, so reducing rates would be beneficial even it it had no impact on revenue or growth—tho I can't see how increased efficiency would result in anything but growth.

A parallel objective of my argument is this: we need to quit fooling ourselves that by cranking up tax rates we can solve our problems with deficits. We need to reduce spending or we're never going to make progress.
 

We are in strong agreement here.

On taxes, I'm just saying it's all a lot more complicated that rates. I do think the rates are relevant in that you need to have some method to collect revenue, but  beyond that I think saying that raising or lowering rates as a method to increase (or decrease depending on which side of the argument you are on) is a just one of many factors. 

It's sort of like saying "eating Twinkies will make you feel better". Well yes, sort of, breifly. but if you eat too many you'll be sick, if you never touch one, you'll miss part of the meaning in the movie Zombieland. And if you say "Reducing Twinkie consumption is the key to good health", you are probably right, but are missing a lot more pieces to the puzzle.  -Islander, master of the bad/confusing analogy. 

black321
See For Yourself
black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: May 10, 2017 - 2:32pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
A parallel objective of my argument is this: we need to quit fooling ourselves that by cranking up tax rates we can solve our problems with deficits. We need to reduce spending or we're never going to make progress.
 
That's the truth. 
Lazy8
human
Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2017 - 2:03pm

 islander wrote:
I do buy the rest of your argument in general. But I still think you are looking only at a couple of minor knobs on the big mixing board of the economy.  There are so many more things in the tax policy beyond the rate which make a difference in the resulting revenue. And often I'd argue that much of it is poorly understood by even the smartest, and barely (at best) understood by the ones making the policy.

Still the best system we've got.

And I'm still not sure what you're responding to, but it isn't just about improving the economy. High rates of taxation drive companies to do unproductive things, so reducing rates would be beneficial even it it had no impact on revenue or growth—tho I can't see how increased efficiency would result in anything but growth.

A parallel objective of my argument is this: we need to quit fooling ourselves that by cranking up tax rates we can solve our problems with deficits. We need to reduce spending or we're never going to make progress.

 


islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: May 10, 2017 - 12:24pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 islander wrote:
This is a lot like the argument further down that says lower the tax rates and you'll stimulate growth and get more revenue.

The whole situation is a lot more complex that Rates up = Revenue down (and vice versa).

Note that I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it's a whole lot more complicated. If rates really have in inverse relation to revenue, then why have rates at all? Or we could make them negative and be infinitely rich!  We could just print money... oh wait.

I'm a good capitalist too. I just filed my 720 and am having to do a monthly B&O calculation as a new corporate entity. I don't like paying any taxes, but I do see the necessity. I think it's one of those pendulums that is destined to swing for as long as we look at it. Hopefully we can keep it within a narrow bound that is reasonable enough to not cause other problems, but still fulfill the base needs - this will be our next debate.

The argument "that says lower the tax rates and you'll stimulate growth and get more revenue" isn't one I made.

I think it's true, but not a direct result. When you reduce the penalty for reporting income people will report more of it, even is they're making the same income. If they don't have to resort to absurd mechanisms to shield that income from taxes the economy will become more efficient, but that doesn't scale with the reduction in rates. i.e., if you cut rates in half you won't double incomes, but revenue (historically) will remain the same.

There is probably some threshold below which the revenue extracted (by the aggregate of the various forms of taxation) starts dropping, but we're a long ways from that. There are many countries with zero capital gains rates. They aren't suffering for tax revenue.

 

There is a distinction here, but it feels pretty minor to me -
 
Lazy8 wrote:
The real lesson here is that corporate tax rates aren't very good predictors of corporate tax revenues. A healthy economy brings in more revenue even if rates fall. 


I do buy the rest of your argument in general. But I still think you are looking only at a couple of minor knobs on the big mixing board of the economy.  There are so many more things in the tax policy beyond the rate which make a difference in the resulting revenue. And often I'd argue that much of it is poorly understood by even the smartest, and barely (at best) understood by the ones making the policy.

Still the best system we've got. 

Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 68, 69, 70  Next