Insurance Regulation is handled on a State basis. Different states have different regs. Apparently CA has laws preventing Insurance premiums to rise too much, whereas in Oklahoma, Insurance Premiums aren't that regulated and can go as high as they want.
However, Insurers do business and spread risk, Nationally.
CNN's implication through data was that, essentially, Oklahoma, and other reg free states, are helping to finance Home Owner Insurance in CA and those that regulate.
there are unique rules and regs related to CA insurance, in response to insurer premiums and dropping coverage.
i'm certainly not smart enough to comment on how effective these new rules are, but the underlying issue is the cost and frequency of events have increased, which is changing the market.
but clearly, this had nothing to do with the fighting a fire when there are hurricane force winds....
Although on BlueSky someone was saying it was an almost exact rerun of the Santa Monica Mountain fires of 1938
so it sounds like the area is exposed to this kind of risk on a regular basis, just at relatively long intervals.
In my experience insurance actuaries are actually quite good at quantifying risk. They are just working with a limited dataset due to our relatively short time of record-keeping, so revisions of risk profiles can be expected as we gather more data over time.
Ya think that the insurance companies might actually know the actual state and readiness of reservoirs and how well forest management and fire mitigation is not being done as it should be ?
And then the budgets of fire departments are cut by millions of dollars ?
Ya think that the insurance companies might actually know the actual state and readiness of reservoirs and how well forest management and fire mitigation is not being done as it should be ?
And then the budgets of fire departments are cut by millions of dollars ?
might be an interesting question if we were just talking California...but we have the same question for most states with homes near wildfires like CO, or flooding risk like FL.
I live in a wildfire area outside of denver. i recently had my premium jump by over $1k to ~$6.5K, after a few years of similar jumps. Tried calling at least six other firms for a quote - Allstate, Geico, Farmers, Great American...and none of them are writing policies.
Daughter has a fairly modest home in area north of tampa, ~30 miles from the ocean. Rate has jumped in recent years by about 100%....are they mismanaging their flood zones, even though she isnt in one?
A premium is based on the cost of the funding the risk (rising from inflation) and the probability of the risk occurring (also rising) plus their profit above that formula).
insurance cos understand that both the costs and the probabilities are rising, the latter to some extent from mismanagement, but more so from a perspective of climate change and population growth.
Ya think that the insurance companies might actually know the actual state and readiness of reservoirs and how well forest management and fire mitigation is not being done as it should be ?
And then the budgets of fire departments are cut by millions of dollars ?
I enjoyed reading through some Reddit ELI5s with legit firefighters contributing their knowledge. Logical/physics stuff that are far beyond my knowledge base about how difficult something like this is to combat: firehoses have to spray in a linear, not rainbow, fashion because of how they disrupt the "Smoke layer" and "Thermal layer" and doing it wrong kills everyone; and how fighters are trained for various kinds of fires and they all know a little but are basically subdivided like medical folks specializing in the type they're dealing with.
And there's the obvious: with winds that strong you can't drop water/suppressant on anything because it'll blow away or dissipate. Combine that with the growth and incongruous infrastructure and whining about how it's the politicians just sounds petty. How it's rebuilt or not is certainly in the realm of politics and business, but not the nature of this beast.
Being a Californian, you grow up and are raised to know that "The Big One" is going to happen, whether it be an earthquake or a fire, and the always be prepared and not be surprised when it happens.
PDF page 74 ... Forest Service, I’ve always been an advocate of what you do because we are a State where wildfires are a way of life. It’s not a matter of if, it’s always a matter of when.
Moving along to PDF page 77
We will begin with the Miller family. Mr. Miller, I know Senator Allard and I really want to extend our very deep sympathy to you and your wife and your family. I can’t think of anything worse than losing a home, if it isn’t losing two homes, which has happened to you. We are most interested in your testimony, and what aid you have needed, what aid you’ve received, what you need and you can’t get, so your testimony will be very interesting to us. Please begin. Everybody, if you can confine your remarks to 5 minutes, that would be appreciated. STATEMENT OF SKIP AND LINDA MILLER, VICTIMS IN THE SAN DIEGO FIRES Mr. MILLER. Okay. Like you had mentioned, we lost our home in the Cedar fire, and very unexpectedly lost it again in actually the McCoy fire. Senator FEINSTEIN. Just as soon as you rebuilt it; is that right? You just—— Mr. MILLER. Yes, pretty much. We had just done final inspection in it in April 2006, so we were—it took us about 3 years to rebuild. Regarding the building codes, we had rebuilt pretty much under the codes—the new building codes that the Fire Chief had described here. We had fire-resistant siding, fire-resistant roof, dualpaned windows, pretty much everything—— Senator FEINSTEIN. Did you have a composite roof? Was it a—— Mr. MILLER. It was a Class A fire-rated composite, not tile. Senator FEINSTEIN. The siding was? Mr. MILLER. Siding was the hardy board, cement board construction. And—— Senator FEINSTEIN. You had boxed eaves? Mr. MILLER. Boxed eaves. Senator FEINSTEIN. Double-paned glass? Mr. MILLER. Double-paned glass, yes. Everything described—the things that—the issues that—I am going to rebuild, so—the issues that to me would be important would be the venting, the under eave vents. Senator FEINSTEIN. I’m sorry, the what? Mr. MILLER. The venting, the attic vents under the eaves. Also possibly some kind of fire-resistant shuttering for any opening, especially in a high wind prone area. These would be issues that when I do rebuild, that I’ll be looking at. Senator FEINSTEIN. Now, have you tried to get any help? Is the help you need there, or are you adequately insured? Mr. MILLER. Yes, I did upgrade my insurance right after the Cedar fire, so I should be pretty well-insured. One thing that I kind of just thought of that kind of came up in one of the—the other panel is there was assistance for building code upgrades—or actu-
ally, there wasn’t assistance. It was for the fire service to upgrade—the Federal grants.
Typically, at least my insurance specifically States that it does not cover building code upgrades. So even though I am insured for what was the value of my home, new building code upgrades could cause a hardship. So that might be an issue with the Insurance Commissioner. Senator FEINSTEIN. If I might just quickly ask this, do you know—where was your home exactly, and did other homes burn around it? Was it just your home at that point? Mr. MILLER. Yes, we were in the McCoy fire, which was a very small fire, and it’s—there was a lot of misinformation regarding that. On the news coverage, it looked like it was out near Salton Sea somewhere, which actually, it’s just west of the Cuyamaca Mountain Range. There were actually three homes lost and several outbuildings I noticed on the chart, and talking with some other firefighter representatives, there is only one home listed as being lost. It’s actually way out in the middle of chaparral, which is—you can expect—if you live there, you expect to be burned. I mean, that’s almost a given, and it’s kind of a risk. I think homeownership is kind of a compromise between what your ideal would be and what reality is. So if you live in a high fire-prone area, then you need to accept that risk that you probably are going to burn at some point. Senator FEINSTEIN. Did you have brush cleared away 100 feet from the house? Mr. MILLER. Yes. Actually, the—I had a minimum of 100 feet, and probably up to over 200 feet in most areas. The area had previously burned in the Cedar fire, so essentially, the odds that this would burn again were very small, almost to the point of the odds of being struck by lightning. Now that it’s burned a second time, I would say the odds might be more like burning up in the middle of the Sahara Desert or something like that. So hopefully—— Senator FEINSTEIN. Now, you mentioned two things in your new house, the ventilation—— Mr. MILLER. Yes. Senator FEINSTEIN. Do you suspect that’s how your house caught fire? Mr. MILLER. That would be a possibility. One of the things that— and you had mentioned this—and apparently fire-safe homes in Rancho Bernardo, and they were just burned. They were in a high wind. There was a structure upwind from my house. When we saw the fire coming, this house was virtually disintegrating. Very large burning objects, fire—were coming pretty much directly toward us. So that was the time to get out. So that could’ve penetrated the structure through glass or possibly even a wall. Because somebody had clocked the winds in that area at over 90 miles per hour, so this is hurricane force winds with flaming objects blowing right directly toward you. Senator FEINSTEIN. Well, thank you very much for your testimony. It’s very much appreciated. If there’s anything we can do to help, let us know. I’ve got a good colleague here. We’ll try and help.
The winds we are seeing now in L A are not unprecedented. They happen all the time, when ever the Santana Wind as the old timers called the Santa Ana Wind, blows. It was The Devil Wind, hence Santana. In SoCal, you learn the weather patterns which are very predictable and learn about The Great Basin in Nevada where the conditions for this wind originate. The Pineapple Express, June Gloom are another seasonal weather patterns. They are so predictable they have names. The elected officials simply dropped the ball and are using unprecedented as a cover, implying that there is no way we could have known this was going to happen. Bullshit. The Mayor knew the wind was coming before she left for Africa even after promising that she was not going to leave the country anymore if elected Mayor. The reservoirs were left dry and unrepaired for years. Well Angelino's got the government they voted for. And this is what they get for putting ideology over capabilities and common sense priorities. You get mismanagement and in this case what might likely be criminal neglect.
The chickens have come home to roost .. except this time the roost burned down, too.
The whole report is very interesting once past all of the formalities and many questions posed by peeps are dealt with.
circling back on this, because it's interesting bits in all the tragedy. Several/many of the houses that did survive were ones built to be passive or low / zero impact homes. A lot has to do with the heavy insulation and practices like triple pane windows and tight sealing of the envelope that kept out a lot of heat/embers. It will be interesting to see what gets incorporated into codes as these regions are rebuilt. It will also be interesting to see how much people choose to go above and beyond code, and how widespread that mindset becomes as disasters happen in other regions.
We are in desperate need of a "reset" when it comes to housing. Their size, their materials, their locations, and the burden of financial responsibility for disasters. As someone who grew up on the Jersey shore, the cost of property now has a "social backstop" that's unreasonably high. We have to stop supporting the development of housing in high risk locations.
We also have to build housing that lasts. I am constantly amazed at the difference in build quality in Europe as compared to the US. Tile roofing, quality windows, etc. It's easier to do when you build homes that are focused on energy efficiency, and those homes are more densely positioned near cities and public transportation. The average new home in the US is 2,300 sq ft, as compared to 1,000 to 1,300 sq ft across most of Europe. Our perceptions of wealth, luxury, and "the dream" need to prioritize function and finances in the future.
If the cost of construction in CA goes up 20%, the entire area would be better off re-building at 80% of the prior size.
I have no experience in these matters but I'm wondering if any fire suppression systems would work against the raging firestorms I've seen in video clips.
circling back on this, because it's interesting bits in all the tragedy. Several/many of the houses that did survive were ones built to be passive or low / zero impact homes. A lot has to do with the heavy insulation and practices like triple pane windows and tight sealing of the envelope that kept out a lot of heat/embers. It will be interesting to see what gets incorporated into codes as these regions are rebuilt. It will also be interesting to see how much people choose to go above and beyond code, and how widespread that mindset becomes as disasters happen in other regions.
I have no experience in these matters but I'm wondering if any fire suppression systems would work against the raging firestorms I've seen in video clips.
I was wondering the same thing.
To "fireproof" a house is a lot more difficult than you'd believe. In 100 MPH winds, embers will go any and everywhere, so even things like crawlspace and eve vents need to be fireproofed.
As for the sprinkler and suppression systems... I was wondering how they could possibly work at the wind speeds suggested on the "into the wind" side of the house.
Last thing mentioned below... water pressure is an amazing bit of engineering and relatively simple, practical, common sense. My favorite thought about it is that all of the water pressure in NY city... up to the 6th floor... works on pressure created from the reservoirs in upstate NY. Above the 6th floor, you need a tank above the apartment...in the building...for the pressure. All of that water above the 6th floor is put there by pumps. Those pumps run on electricity.
The same with the municipal water towers in your hometown. Water pressure requires electricity. Apparently a lot of the water pressure in LA was lost due to a lack of electricity. The electricity fails because the utility company shuts it off... because the wind brings down power lines and sparks new fires. PG&E was blamed for the deaths in the Camp wildfire because they didn't shut off the power. Everyone complains about costs and regulations... should California require all power lines to be buried? There are no easy answers, and all of the good options are expensive.
in WA, most of the new build codes require fire sprinklers in any significant construction - the ones I have seen all have power independent pressure systems. I will be interested to see how systems like that performed in a giant fire like this. From what I've seen of devastated neighborhoods, either few had them or they were not effective.
In my data center days, we looked at some really interesting systems for fire suppression. Once was a super high pressure nozzle system that made a mist so fine it was effectively fog. It could be deployed in a generator room with the generators running. It was ridiculously expensive.
I have no experience in these matters but I'm wondering if any fire suppression systems would work against the raging firestorms I've seen in video clips.
Fair points. It wouldn't be practical or smart for most people in the city to try to defend their property. I don't know the details of American house construction for fire protection but I'm sure the ultra wealthy can afford to build fortresses. Whether they did or not is another matter. It will be interesting to see how many homes were saved by private firefighters. I mean, it's one thing to have the staff to come out and defend a couple of houses, but when the whole suburb is on fire, they could have problems if they have many clients.
So my point about the pumps was really just responding to Kurt saying it couldn't be done. A few years ago there was a person in South Australia who had designed a sprinkler and misting system, along with a well built house. He was out of state when the fire came through and he could activate it remotely. There are lots of options and they all cost money and the value depends on the situation. You are really just trying to tip the odds in your favour and I don't think much could be done for the LA fires.
The insurance thing can be partly political. Didn't Florida pass some rules that made some insurance companies just leave? Here, one of the problems is getting them to pay out. Lots of pressure on people to take a quick settlement that way undervalues damages - particularly with flooding where the whole house isn't destroyed.
in WA, most of the new build codes require fire sprinklers in any significant construction - the ones I have seen all have power independent pressure systems. I will be interested to see how systems like that performed in a giant fire like this. From what I've seen of devastated neighborhoods, either few had them or they were not effective.
In my data center days, we looked at some really interesting systems for fire suppression. Once was a super high pressure nozzle system that made a mist so fine it was effectively fog. It could be deployed in a generator room with the generators running. It was ridiculously expensive.
When you say "many people here" have fuel powered pumps, how many of them are in Sydney and Melbourne? In LA, we're talking about a metropolitan area roughly the population of those two cities combined.
The US Right's immediate reaction is to blame California's over regulation and environmental practices for both the creation of the problem and the limitation on the solution. It's pointless, stupid, political pandering. Of course material costs go up, but so does competition and opportunity... the American Dream in action.
I heard someone (with an obvious Right leaning slant) on sports radio this morning talking about how the Democrats have made it hard for people to get insurance. It's not political, it's environmental. Florida and California both have their own risks. Flood insurance is as big a problem in New Jersey (Dem) as it is in Florida and Louisiana (Rep.). People want to blame insurance companies and states, but the reality is that the reinsurance markets for those risks has become unimaginably expensive for the insurers. Insurance is incredibly complicated, which is why so many people make such a nice living in it. They aren't going to put their own careers at risk to write high-risk policies in Florida that could wipe them out in one storm.
These issues are much bigger than fire suppression and raking underbrush.
Sidenote: Having spent over a decade in insurance... our "high net worth" client services included the provision private fire protection. We contracted with firefighters, recovery firms, and fire suppression companies for our insureds. A lot of foam spraying options if you have the money. When you have $100M in art, the building is the least of your exposure. Paying someone $100k to protect the house for a few days is a low cost option. Very few have these "problems".
Fair points. It wouldn't be practical or smart for most people in the city to try to defend their property. I don't know the details of American house construction for fire protection but I'm sure the ultra wealthy can afford to build fortresses. Whether they did or not is another matter. It will be interesting to see how many homes were saved by private firefighters. I mean, it's one thing to have the staff to come out and defend a couple of houses, but when the whole suburb is on fire, they could have problems if they have many clients.
So my point about the pumps was really just responding to Kurt saying it couldn't be done. A few years ago there was a person in South Australia who had designed a sprinkler and misting system, along with a well built house. He was out of state when the fire came through and he could activate it remotely. There are lots of options and they all cost money and the value depends on the situation. You are really just trying to tip the odds in your favour and I don't think much could be done for the LA fires.
The insurance thing can be partly political. Didn't Florida pass some rules that made some insurance companies just leave? Here, one of the problems is getting them to pay out. Lots of pressure on people to take a quick settlement that way undervalues damages - particularly with flooding where the whole house isn't destroyed.
Sprinklers only need power if you have non-latching solenoid control. If you just turn on a tap hooked up to a sprinkler it just needs water pressure. Not at all effective - people were just wasting water and making it harder to get water to the firefighters.
Many people here have fuel powered fire fighting pumps. Lots of people have huge rain tanks, too. Still, sometimes there isn't much you can do. My beef dude had a ton of experience with the Country Fire Authority, Had fire water supply in a loop system around his house to ensure delivery and still lost everything except his house, and his and his teenage daughter's lives. It was close.
When you say "many people here" have fuel powered pumps, how many of them are in Sydney and Melbourne? In LA, we're talking about a metropolitan area roughly the population of those two cities combined.
The US Right's immediate reaction is to blame California's over regulation and environmental practices for both the creation of the problem and the limitation on the solution. It's pointless, stupid, political pandering. Of course material costs go up, but so does competition and opportunity... the American Dream in action.
I heard someone (with an obvious Right leaning slant) on sports radio this morning talking about how the Democrats have made it hard for people to get insurance. It's not political, it's environmental. Florida and California both have their own risks. Flood insurance is as big a problem in New Jersey (Dem) as it is in Florida and Louisiana (Rep.). People want to blame insurance companies and states, but the reality is that the reinsurance markets for those risks has become unimaginably expensive for the insurers. Insurance is incredibly complicated, which is why so many people make such a nice living in it. They aren't going to put their own careers at risk to write high-risk policies in Florida that could wipe them out in one storm.
These issues are much bigger than fire suppression and raking underbrush.
Sidenote: Having spent over a decade in insurance... our "high net worth" client services included the provision private fire protection. We contracted with firefighters, recovery firms, and fire suppression companies for our insureds. A lot of foam spraying options if you have the money. When you have $100M in art, the building is the least of your exposure. Paying someone $100k to protect the house for a few days is a low cost option. Very few have these "problems".
Sprinklers do not work when there is no power and the other issue you raised, not everyone in California has a swimming pool and even if they did, they still cannot pump water from their pools with no electricity.
Sidebar, the cost of lumber will double if it has not already. Rebuilding will be unfeasible in most places with all the regulations on the books. It could take years just to get a building permit. And the property has to be insurable.
Sprinklers only need power if you have non-latching solenoid control. If you just turn on a tap hooked up to a sprinkler it just needs water pressure. Not at all effective - people were just wasting water and making it harder to get water to the firefighters.
Many people here have fuel powered fire fighting pumps. Lots of people have huge rain tanks, too. Still, sometimes there isn't much you can do. My beef dude had a ton of experience with the Country Fire Authority, Had fire water supply in a loop system around his house to ensure delivery and still lost everything except his house, and his and his teenage daughter's lives. It was close.
