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edieraye

edieraye Avatar



Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 8:19am

 steeler wrote:
Here is my point ( you were wondering if I would get to one — we shall see {#Lol}).  I believe the question is whether — right now — one would vote for Palin for President over Biden. 
 
Personally, no way!  But then I would have voted for Edwards over Cheney and Gore over Quayle.  (For anyone who is curious: Kemp over Gore and Lieberman vs. Cheney went solidly to Cheney at the time.)  I do think that Palin was a strategic choice in more ways than are being explored on RP and I'm not convinced that it wasn't a good choice.  After all, is there really a chance that the Republicans can win this election with the economy the way it is and such an unpopular president at the helm?  The long term effects of her nomination will reverberate through both parties for years.  But this thread isn't supposed to be about her, it is supposed to be about Biden.  And even I can't stay on topic!

P.S.  I'll have to go look at those questions again but I think it was more of an early morning, before I had my coffee rant.  No need to respond.  Unless you need to rant yourself.
rachlan

rachlan Avatar

Location: nyc
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 8:09am

 steeler wrote:


I think you are absolutely right, Edie, that there should be as much focus upon Joe Biden as Obama's selection as VP as there is upon Sarah Palin as McCain's selection as VP.  But, here's the thing:  That focus on these VP candidates should be on the periphery of the analysis of the tickets.  The one thing I think everyone can agree upon as that Palin has been front-and-center for a month now. That is unprecedented. Which way that will cut remains to be seen. I am skeptical that McCain can win if the focus remains upon Palin — and, as I've said previously, I shudder to think that he might win because the focus remains upon Palin.  And that shuddering of mine is because the focus upon her  seems to be based largely upon irrelevant factors.  Of course, the GOP/McCain backers cannot have it both ways — or at least should not be able to have it both ways. They can't keep her in the focus because it is helping the ticket, yet at the same time complain that she is being unfairly scrutinized and criticised. Or can they?  Well, that's a different story, for a different post.

I agree with you that she essentially presents a clean slate — which makes her, in relative terms, an unknown.  Biden, after 35 years in the Senate and a couple runs for the presidency, is a known commodity, gaffs and all.  So, naturally, the vetting is going to be more aimed at her than at him.             

Here is my point ( you were wondering if I would get to one — we shall see {#Lol}).  I believe the question is whether — right now — one would vote for Palin for President over Biden.  That is the No. 1 consideration in evaluating a VP candidate.  As you say, and I agree, Palin is far less likely to have as much impact in a McCain administration as Biden would have in an Obama administration. Speculation, I know, but I agree with your speculation on that.  So, back to the big question.  If we agree that she is much more of an unknown than Biden, we also would have to agree that she is more of a gamble. So, then the question becomes, Is what she brings to the table worth the gamble?  As I've said before to you and a few others, I'm not interested in whether she can be groomed (no pun intended) to be a viable candidate for President 4 or 8 years down the road.  In my mind, the VP is not an apprenticeship — again, back to the big question.

I really think she was chosen solely by McCain for strategic purposes related entirely to winning the campaign. Now, I do think he likes her and has some measure of respect for  her, but, like you, I don't think she really will have a major impact within his administration.  Now, McCain makes a big deal —as he should — about his having taken an unpopular stance on the Iraq war, saying that he would rather lose an election than a war.  The whole putting-the-country-first thing.  Well, I'm not so sure he did that here in his selection of a VP.  The word is that he wanted to pick Lieberman or Ridge, and fell back to Palin.  

Do you think he put the country first by picking Palin for VP or did he put winning the election first?

{#Whisper} I haven't forgotten about your PM questions; will be responding at some point . . . ever optimistic!              

  good point.  have you written on oped letter on this?  I guess maybe that is not exactly an issue at this point.  there are some other things to discuss.... but still.


edieraye

edieraye Avatar



Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 8:04am

 rosedraws wrote:
He's been around enough that we know a little about him.  He's not extreme, so there's not much to get in a whoopla about.

And your point is absolutely proven if you look at the RP stats: count how many pages were written about McCain, Palin, and Obama in the past 24 hours and here we are - still on page one of Biden.  I have two different reactions which really ought to go in two different posts for clarity:

FIRST:  Does the fact that there doesn't seem to be much "whoopla" about Biden mean that he was a good or bad choice for Obama?  On the one hand he isn't rocking the boat.  Or is this a case of no publicity is worse than bad publicity?

SECOND (and completely unrelated):  Isn't this a sad commentary on our commentary!  Unlike Palin we actually know who Biden is and where he stands on the issues.  I can't help but think that if this was an issues driven election - and if our commentary on RP was issues driven - then we would have TONS to discuss.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 7:49am

 edieraye wrote:
I just finished reading an interesting - or at least amusing - OpEd piece on Senator Biden and thought I'd stop by to see what RPeeps are saying about the man who might be one breath away from the Presidency of the US.  How disappointing to find that while Obama, McCain and of course Palin have their own threads - very active threads at that - Biden has nada, zilch, zero.  So I am doing my part to rectify the situation.

As much as it is fun to talk about Palin's VPncy - what impact does it have on the McCain platform?  While there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement in the thread dedicated to her nomination, I don't know what there is to disagree about.  She has no experience.  She has no platform of her own.  She is as clean of a slate as you can find in politics.  I honestly don't see her impacting a McCain Presidency in any major way.  At least not in the first few years.

On the other hand, Obama picked Biden to balance out the Democratic ticket.  To add some experience to a mostly visionary campaign.  (I don't mean that as a slight.  Is there anyone who thinks Obama isn't running a campaign with an emphasis on vision?  Please, anyone who takes issue with that statement is arguing for the sake of hearing themselves think.)  I believe Biden will have a real impact on an Obama Presidency.  His role - as I see it - will be to help Obama flesh out his vision and put it into practice.  Biden's knowledge, experience, and insight will steer Obama through the difficult task of turning hope into reality.

So why isn't there a thread about him?  Why are there no heated debates?

 

I think you are absolutely right, Edie, that there should be as much focus upon Joe Biden as Obama's selection as VP as there is upon Sarah Palin as McCain's selection as VP.  But, here's the thing:  That focus on these VP candidates should be on the periphery of the analysis of the tickets.  The one thing I think everyone can agree upon is that Palin has been front-and-center for a month now. That is unprecedented. Which way that will cut remains to be seen. I am skeptical that McCain can win if the focus remains upon Palin — and, as I've said previously, I shudder to think that he might win because the focus remains upon Palin.  And that shuddering of mine is because the focus upon her  seems to be based largely upon irrelevant factors.  Of course, the GOP/McCain backers cannot have it both ways — or at least should not be able to have it both ways. They can't keep her in the focus because it is helping the ticket, yet at the same time complain that she is being unfairly scrutinized and criticised. Or can they?  Well, that's a different story, for a different post.

I agree with you that she essentially presents a clean slate — which makes her, in relative terms, an unknown.  Biden, after 35 years in the Senate and a couple runs for the presidency, is a known commodity, gaffs and all.  So, naturally, the vetting is going to be more aimed at her than at him.             

Here is my point ( you were wondering if I would get to one — we shall see {#Lol}).  I believe the question is whether — right now — one would vote for Palin for President over Biden.  That is the No. 1 consideration in evaluating a VP candidate.  As you say, and I agree, Palin is far less likely to have as much impact in a McCain administration as Biden would have in an Obama administration. Speculation, I know, but I agree with your speculation on that.  So, back to the big question.  If we agree that she is much more of an unknown than Biden, we also would have to agree that she is more of a gamble. So, then the question becomes, Is what she brings to the table worth the gamble?  As I've said before to you and a few others, I'm not interested in whether she can be groomed (no pun intended) to be a viable candidate for President 4 or 8 years down the road.  In my mind, the VP is not an apprenticeship — again, back to the big question.

I really think she was chosen solely by McCain for strategic purposes related entirely to winning the campaign. Now, I do think he likes her and has some measure of respect for  her, but, like you, I don't think she really will have a major impact within his administration.  Now, McCain makes a big deal —as he should — about his having taken an unpopular stance on the Iraq war, saying that he would rather lose an election than a war.  The whole putting-the-country-first thing.  Well, I'm not so sure he did that here in his selection of a VP.  The word is that he wanted to pick Lieberman or Ridge, and fell back to Palin.  

Do you think he put the country first by picking Palin for VP or did he put winning the election first?

{#Whisper} I haven't forgotten about your PM questions; will be responding at some point . . . ever optimistic!              


rosedraws

rosedraws Avatar

Location: close to the edge
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 5:51am

edieraye wrote:
As much as it is fun to talk about Palin's VPncy - what impact does it have on the McCain platform?

{#Eh}

Biden is a somewhat typical VP.  Adding balance to the ticket.  Experienced, and vetted by running for Prez himself.  He's been around enough that we know a little about him.  He's not extreme, so there's not much to get in a whoopla about.

Yes, he's a gaffmaster.  He's a little too sharp-tongued for me, so I didn't support him in the primary... although many of his stances on the issue line up with mine.

Palin adds extremism to the ticket.  In a lot of ways.  (I'm not talking about gender.)  That is no small impact on the platform.  Plus, McCain is old and has some medical issues.  Not only does he have a much higher chance of kicking the bucket, but every time he goes to the Doc for some typical 70-something procedure, Palin is in charge.  And Palin is grossly unqualified for the position... dangerously so.  The dramatic, campaign-building decision to choose her shows that McCain/Repubs choose their own power gain over the security of the country.  Razzle Dazzle.

McCain chose a VP who would help him get elected.

Obama chose a VP who could do all the things a VP is supposed to do.

KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 9:50pm

 buzz wrote:
If you go to Google News and search "biden", you get a whole bunch of stories about all the gaffs he makes and has made. Lots of fun.

 
Just like Bush!

Except Joe gets a pass.

We all make mistakes.

KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 9:49pm

 edieraye wrote:

Yeah, so TV wasn't invented yet and FDR wasn't President.  According to Slate - it doesn't matter.
 
Just imagine what would happen if Sarah Palen said it.


edieraye

edieraye Avatar



Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:50pm

 OlderThanDirt wrote:
Thanks for the place to post it, I was thinking about putting it in "Things that make me laugh."
 
Serendipitous timing.  Doesn't happen to me often.  I'm more of the day late and a dollar short type! {#Lol}

Curry

Curry Avatar

Location: Home
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:44pm

 buzz wrote:
If you go to Google News and search "biden", you get a whole bunch of stories about all the gaffs he makes and has made. Lots of fun.

 
amusing sure but relevant? meaningful?

i could see it if he's meeting the president of baluchistan one day and he refers to it as karmastan.

edieraye

edieraye Avatar



Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:43pm

 hippiechick wrote:
Everything you want to know about Biden:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/joe-biden

 

If that is all you know about Biden you have sold yourself short.  I suggest checking out his Senate site, his re-election site, even wiki.  His CNN candidate profile provides some interesting insights.  The League of Women Voters is a personal favorite for researching candidates.
OlderThanDirt

OlderThanDirt Avatar

Location: In Transit
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:37pm

 edieraye wrote:

Yeah, so TV wasn't invented yet and FDR wasn't President.  According to Slate - it doesn't matter.
 
Because, "He misspeaks so often, it's hardly news — and hardly damaging."

Thanks for the place to post it, I was thinking about putting it in "Things that make me laugh."


buzz

buzz Avatar

Location: up the boohai


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:32pm

If you go to Google News and search "biden", you get a whole bunch of stories about all the gaffs he makes and has made. Lots of fun.
edieraye

edieraye Avatar



Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:28pm

 OlderThanDirt wrote:
Your timing is unbelievable!  I was just trying to decide where to put this:
*snip*
 
Yeah, so TV wasn't invented yet and FDR wasn't President.  According to Slate - it doesn't matter.

OlderThanDirt

OlderThanDirt Avatar

Location: In Transit
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:25pm

Your timing is unbelievable!  I was just trying to decide where to put this:


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:23pm

Everything you want to know about Biden:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/joe-biden
edieraye

edieraye Avatar



Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 2:19pm

I just finished reading an interesting - or at least amusing - OpEd piece on Senator Biden and thought I'd stop by to see what RPeeps are saying about the man who might be one breath away from the Presidency of the US.  How disappointing to find that while Obama, McCain and of course Palin have their own threads - very active threads at that - Biden has nada, zilch, zero.  So I am doing my part to rectify the situation.

As much as it is fun to talk about Palin's VPncy - what impact does it have on the McCain platform?  While there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement in the thread dedicated to her nomination, I don't know what there is to disagree about.  She has no experience.  She has no platform of her own.  She is as clean of a slate as you can find in politics.  I honestly don't see her impacting a McCain Presidency in any major way.  At least not in the first few years.

On the other hand, Obama picked Biden to balance out the Democratic ticket.  To add some experience to a mostly visionary campaign.  (I don't mean that as a slight.  Is there anyone who thinks Obama isn't running a campaign with an emphasis on vision?  Please, anyone who takes issue with that statement is arguing for the sake of hearing themselves think.)  I believe Biden will have a real impact on an Obama Presidency.  His role - as I see it - will be to help Obama flesh out his vision and put it into practice.  Biden's knowledge, experience, and insight will steer Obama through the difficult task of turning hope into reality.

So why isn't there a thread about him?  Why are there no heated debates?
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