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BasmntMadman

BasmntMadman Avatar

Location: Off-White Gardens


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 6:37pm

dionysius wrote:

How is insisting that everyone stop hyphenating, speak "proper" English, and generally assimilate to a white Anglo Protestant point of view NOT racist, again?

So what consitutes an "American" anyway? Someone whose ancestors came from Europe? Think carefully before you answer.


Someone who thinks that football is played with a ball that's pointy on both ends.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 6:28pm

 manbirdexperiment wrote:

I don't give a shit about anything I just live here - i could be a clone on the moon for all i care as long as I have a place to live some food and a couple hawks

 
Serf's up, dude !  {#Wink}

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 6:02pm

 dionysius wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

 As long as people in this country insist on Hyphenating and insist on maintaining their ethic identity rather than becoming an American, this debate will continue.  


How is insisting that everyone stop hyphenating, speak "proper" English, and generally assimilate to a white Anglo Protestant point of view NOT racist, again?

So what consitutes an "American" anyway? Someone whose ancestors came from Europe? Think carefully before you answer.

 
OK, fair question.

America, unlike most countries, as we know, is a nation of immigrants, not a homogenous ethnic group that has lived in one place indefinitely and successfully defended their turf and evolved into a homogenous nation, such as Germany and Japan for example.

There are two kinds of "legal" Americans for openers.  Those born here and are citizens by birth and those who come here to embrace and join what has been established.  After that however it gets blurry.

I would like to think that an American is someone who recognizes and respects the roots of the nation's birth and finds that the Constitution is the accepted law of the land (and puts country ahead of ethnicity).  That it was born of an Anglo Protestant point of view is a fact and the way things are.  To ignore that and / or make it a detraction is a disservice to this nation and the Constitution.   While the Founding Fathers and documents recognize a Creator, it does not recognize any particular church or devine right to rule.  Whether or not you believe in a creator is secondary and neither's rights are restricted.  

That having been said, it is also the beginning point and from where this nation has evolved into what it is today.  The Constitution did not establish or grant certain political parties any rights, only rules in which groups or factions could operate.  Being an American is also a great responsibility.  IMO it should mean that you are willing to fight and die to protect this country and its Constitution from those who wish to destroy it so that it may continue to exist.  As this country was born out of revolution, many of its detractors use that as justification for its demise.  I find that notion unjustifiable as the revolution provided a means for a country with the best set of rules (so far) to be born.  Prior to that, the rules were that of a foreign monarchy subject to whim and fancy.  The Revolution provided stability, not Anarchy.  The Constitution does provide for change and provides a set of rules for establishing that change.  To do it outside of the terms established in the Constitution, would be in my view, un American and therefore Anti - American.  The only exception to that would be if we were taken over by someone who does not recognize the Constitution as valid.(I am not going down that road for this discussion at this point in time, so don't take me there, yet)  

I would also proffer that those who come to America with the intent to change rather than join what has been established is undesireable.  To come here under any other circumstances than to join and validate what has been established should not be allowed.  This country should change from within, for and by reasons of its legal citizens through the means provided.  This country is the only nation on earth (that I am aware of) that has never been subject to authoritarian rule as an established nation.  There is a reason for that and I find it worth defending.  I also find that as grounds for implementing change slowly and carefully, so as not to fall into the trap of other's failures. 

This may not be an all encompassing answer to such a broad question, but it is my serious and respectful attempt to answer your question.  So in that spirit and also that I was willing to go out on a limb and go first, please provide your answer to your own question before we continue any further discussion on this topic.  Having your answer before we move on will provide a level field for continuing this discussion.

Edit: I see that this thread has moved on while I answered your question and you have partially provided an answer, unless that is your answer to your own question.


maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:43pm

 hippiechick wrote:

When my family came over, they were called "greenhorns." Italians were called WOPs, Irish were called Micks. They were poor, spoke different languages, and had to take the lowest, dirtiest jobs in order to give their family the American dream. I would call them Americans. My granparents grew up in Russia/Poland, but they would never identify themselves with either one of those ethnicities, because of the poor relations they had with each other.

But we are all the same inside, we all have the same aspirations and dreams for our our children. Maybe we need to move past the tribal references, since we are certainly a global nation.
 

So were mine.  My grandparents grew up in Lithuania.
dionysius

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Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:43pm

 hippiechick wrote:

When my family came over, they were called "greenhorns." Italians were called WOPs, Irish were called Micks. They were poor, spoke different languages, and had to take the lowest, dirtiest jobs in order to give their family the American dream. I would call them Americans. My granparents grew up in Russia/Poland, but they would never identify themselves with either one of those ethnicities, because of the poor relations they had with each other.

But we are all the same inside, we all have the same aspirations and dreams for our our children. Maybe we need to move past the tribal references, since we are certainly a global nation.
 

Agreed. We cannot tie national identity or citizenship to ethnicity, or we are no better than Nazis, then. The Romantic notion of a "nation" consisting One Blood, One Soil is poisonous nonsense, and has caused a lot of grief in history. Pretty recent history, too, if we look at Iraq and the former Yugoslavia, for just two examples. 


Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: Owl Creek Bridge
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:41pm

 hippiechick wrote:

When my family came over, they were called "greenhorns." Italians were called WOPs, Irish were called Micks. They were poor, spoke different languages, and had to take the lowest, dirtiest jobs in order to give their family the American dream. I would call them Americans. My granparents grew up in Russia/Poland, but they would never identify themselves with either one of those ethnicities, because of the poor relations they had with each other.

But we are all the same inside, we all have the same aspirations and dreams for our our children. Maybe we need to move past the tribal references, since we are certainly a global nation.
 
I don't give a shit about anything I just live here - i could be a clone on the moon for all i care as long as I have a place to live some food and a couple hawks


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:39pm

 dionysius wrote:


It's an interesting question, I think. What does "American" mean? To me, it is obviously not an ethnicity, nor a language. An American is one who loves and tries to live by the ideals set out in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. Jefferson's and Madison's words may be translated into Spanish or Vietnamese and lose nothing of their cogency. Get ready for changing demographics—the USA of the future will have blacks, hispanics and Asians outnumbering European Americans before the middle of this century. So what. They can be and are just as American as anyone whose ancestors stepped on Plymouth Rock, or even those whose very distant ancestors came over the Bering Strait during the last ice age. American = WASP is over, dead and done. American = human being with great aspirations has just begun.

 
When my family came over, they were called "greenhorns." Italians were called WOPs, Irish were called Micks. They were poor, spoke different languages, and had to take the lowest, dirtiest jobs in order to give their family the American dream. I would call them Americans. My granparents grew up in Russia/Poland, but they would never identify themselves with either one of those ethnicities, because of the poor relations they had with each other.

But we are all the same inside, we all have the same aspirations and dreams for our our children. Maybe we need to move past the tribal references, since we are certainly a global nation.

dionysius

dionysius Avatar

Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:23pm

 hippiechick wrote:

It's all about "fear of the other"
 

It's an interesting question, I think. What does "American" mean? To me, it is obviously not an ethnicity, nor a language. An American is one who loves and tries to live by the ideals set out in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. Jefferson's and Madison's words may be translated into Spanish or Vietnamese and lose nothing of their cogency. Get ready for changing demographics—the USA of the future will have blacks, hispanics and Asians outnumbering European Americans before the middle of this century. So what. They can be and are just as American as anyone whose ancestors stepped on Plymouth Rock, or even those whose very distant ancestors came over the Bering Strait during the last ice age. American = WASP is over, dead and done. American = human being with great aspirations has just begun.


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:09pm

 dionysius wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

 As long as people in this country insist on Hyphenating and insist on maintaining their ethic identity rather than becoming an American, this debate will continue.  


How is insisting that everyone stop hyphenating, speak "proper" English, and generally assimilate to a white Anglo Protestant point of view NOT racist, again?

So what consitutes an "American" anyway? Someone whose ancestors came from Europe? Think carefully before you answer.

 
It's all about "fear of the other"

dionysius

dionysius Avatar

Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 5:02pm

 kurtster wrote:

 As long as people in this country insist on Hyphenating and insist on maintaining their ethic identity rather than becoming an American, this debate will continue.  


How is insisting that everyone stop hyphenating, speak "proper" English, and generally assimilate to a white Anglo Protestant point of view NOT racist, again?

So what consitutes an "American" anyway? Someone whose ancestors came from Europe? Think carefully before you answer.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 4:51pm

 jadewahoo wrote:

It is not the 'defending of our borders' that makes your statement racist (I never called YOU a racist, BTW), it is that you would classify someone (in this case, Debi Segura Dobbs) as 'Mexican' simply because they are of Mexican descent. That is akin to calling President Obama a Muslim because some of the family he descended from is Muslim. It is your statement that is racist. Now, you can go on and on about your political beliefs about the need for secured borders yada-yada... but that is not addressing the racism expressed in your statement. When you are willing to look more deeply into that looking glass, and contend with the incipient prejudice to be found therein, then I would be willing to listen to your further comments about border policy. But I will be damned if I will just sit back and let your obsfucations derail from the point on which I am calling you out. Until then, well, your commentaries carry the albatross of your prejudice.

Love ya, man. That's why.
 

I make the distinction between ethnicity and religious backgrounds.  While being Mexican (for example) is an ethnic reference, Muslim, to me at least, is not.  It is a reference towards creed.  These distinctions get blurred and muddied all the time and should not.  In my view, one can be of Mexican descent, but not of Muslim descent.  To the point, is it a slur to call someone a Mexican, when they are of Mexican descent and not a Mexican national ?  Obviously (I would like to think) it would depend on the context.  As long as people in this country insist on Hyphenating and insist on maintaining their ethnic identity rather than becoming an American, this debate will continue.  

Ordinarily, I would never have refered to Debi Segura Dobbs as Mexican, save for this discussion and yes it was an attempt to bait and also see who was paying attention.  I went where I never should have or would have gone ordinarily, to make a point.


oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 4:10pm

 kurtster wrote:


As one who finds fault and comedy in both sides and admits it, I would call it mob mentality.  It is what keeps us apart and prevents us from solving problems.  I guess when you live in a society that has one party ruling the entire government, it allows those in power to think that they are infallible and to conveniently forget the skeletons in their own closet.

 
I didn't forget mine...they're in there right now, plotting their takeover. I'm gonna suprise 'em with a nut bomb and make video of their teeth clacking and post it on youtube...or here in RP...you never know...

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 3:55pm

 Proclivities wrote:

I think the practice of denying that one's own side has done wrong, while condemning groups with any differing opinions or actvities, is pretty common among all persuasions, political or otherwise.  It's group mentality.


 

As one who finds fault and comedy in both sides and admits it, I would call it mob mentality.  It is what keeps us apart and prevents us from solving problems.  I guess when you live in a society that has one party ruling the entire government, it allows those in power to think that they are infallible and to conveniently forget the skeletons in their own closet.
jadewahoo

jadewahoo Avatar

Location: Puerto Viejo, Costa Rica
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 3:49pm

 kurtster wrote:


Once again you got me. 

The reason is that in my opinion, (a broad generalization based upon observation) is that most of the lefties only use a broad brush when they paint righties while they deny that their side has done anything wrong, ever.  Such as in the case earlier when I had to issue a(an) (unchallenged) correction to the point where Repubs never voted to pass any social legislation, ever.  I thought it fair to remind that person of the dear Senator Byrd (D -WV), a former Grand Wizard in the KKK to make my correction. 

Yes. I know opinions are like A-holes, just like the word assume.

And if securing our borders and defending our Constitution is sufficient to paint me a racist, then so be it.

Edit: I love this thread.  With its title, it is totally unjackable.  After all, there are no leftwingnutz as we all know.{#Wink}

 
It is not the 'defending of our borders' that makes your statement racist (I never called YOU a racist, BTW), it is that you would classify someone (in this case, Debi Segura Dobbs) as 'Mexican' simply because they are of Mexican descent. That is akin to calling President Obama a Muslim because some of the family he descended from is Muslim. It is your statement that is racist. Now, you can go on and on about your political beliefs about the need for secured borders yada-yada... but that is not addressing the racism expressed in your statement. When you are willing to look more deeply into that looking glass, and contend with the incipient prejudice to be found therein, then I would be willing to listen to your further comments about border policy. But I will be damned if I will just sit back and let your obsfucations derail from the point on which I am calling you out. Until then, well, your commentaries carry the albatross of your prejudice.

Love ya, man. That's why.

Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 3:41pm

 kurtster wrote:


Once again you got me. 

The reason is that in my opinion, (a broad generalization based upon observation) is that most of the lefties only use a broad brush when they paint righties while they deny that their side has done anything wrong, ever.  Such as in the case earlier when I had to issue a(an) (unchallenged) correction to the point where Repubs never voted to pass any social legislation, ever.  I thought it fair to remind that person of the dear Senator Byrd (D -WV), a former Grand Wizard in the KKK to make my correction. 

Yes. I know opinions are like A-holes, just like the word assume.

And if securing our borders and defending our Constitution is sufficient to paint me a racist, then so be it.

Edit: I love this thread.  With its title, it is totally unjackable.  After all, there are no leftwingnutz as we all know.{#Wink}

 
I think the practice of denying that one's own side has done wrong, while condemning groups with any differing opinions or dubious actions, is pretty common among all persuasions, political or otherwise.  It's group mentality.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 2:55pm

 jadewahoo wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

You got me.  I knew that she was an American of Mexican decent when I wrote that.  I was waiting for a left wing deep thinker to call me on it. 

Just thinking out loud now.  Are there any American - Canadians, or African - Canadians, or American - Mexicans or  American - French, or African - Germans, or ...

Are we American - Fools or what ?  I guess its safe to be a wingnut and say that if you are a hyphenated American, then you just ain't an American.  Who came up with this hyphenated thing anyway ?  An American - Racist ?
Kurt, you are so far to the Left of me, it is laughable. One need not be a Left nor a Righty to recognize racist statement. So... if you meant o say that she is an American of Mexican descent, why not just say that, instead of an inept attempt to bait your fellow RPeeps?

 

Once again you got me. 

The reason is that in my opinion, (a broad generalization based upon observation) is that most of the lefties only use a broad brush when they paint righties while they deny that their side has done anything wrong, ever.  Such as in the case earlier when I had to issue a(an) (unchallenged) correction to the point where Repubs never voted to pass any social legislation, ever.  I thought it fair to remind that person of the dear Senator Byrd (D -WV), a former Grand Wizard in the KKK to make my correction. 

Yes. I know opinions are like A-holes, just like the word assume.

And if securing our borders and defending our Constitution is sufficient to paint me a racist, then so be it.

Edit: I love this thread.  With its title, it is totally unjackable.  After all, there are no leftwingnutz as we all know.{#Wink}


jadewahoo

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Location: Puerto Viejo, Costa Rica
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 2:44pm

 kurtster wrote:

You got me.  I knew that she was an American of Mexican decent when I wrote that.  I was waiting for a left wing deep thinker to call me on it. 

Just thinking out loud now.  Are there any American - Canadians, or African - Canadians, or American - Mexicans or  American - French, or African - Germans, or ...

Are we American - Fools or what ?  I guess its safe to be a wingnut and say that if you are a hyphenated American, then you just ain't an American.  Who came up with this hyphenated thing anyway ?  An American - Racist ?
Kurt, you are so far to the Left of me, it is laughable. One need not be a Lefty nor a Righty to recognize a racist statement. So... if you meant o say that she is an American of Mexican descent, why not just say that, instead of an inept attempt to bait your fellow RPeeps?


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 2:32pm

 hippiechick wrote:

Oh yeah?

Well, it's likely I would catch it because I don't pay no attention to that man. I wouldn't know his wife from the lady down the block.

African-American is a lot better term than was previously used.
 
Well, how about we just be Americans ?  Hyphens, just by their very nature are divisive.  They are not joiners.  If I called myself an European - American, I would be considered a racist.  How come its OK for a certain group and not others ?  You approve of that ?

OBTW: on a totally unrelated item, is getting high strictly a lefty thingy or is it OK for righties to indulge as well ?  Or is it even conceivable that a righty would get high ?

samiyam

samiyam Avatar

Location: Moving North


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 2:12pm

 hippiechick wrote:

Even their god Reagan didn't like the situation.

Someone didn't like my haves/have nots argument, but isn't their argument "It's my $$$, land, benefits, taxes, etc... and I don't want to share it with you"?
 
After All... we stole it fair and square.

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 1:57pm

 kurtster wrote:

You got me.  I knew that she was an American of Mexican decent when I wrote that.  I was waiting for a left wing deep thinker to call me on it. 

Just thinking out loud now.  Are there any American - Canadians, or African - Canadians, or American - Mexicans or  American - French, or African - Germans, or ...

Are we American - Fools or what ?  I guess its safe to be a wingnut and say that if you are a hyphenated American, then you just ain't an American.  Who came up with this hyphenated thing anyway ?  An American - Racist ?
 
Oh yeah?

Well, it's likely I would catch it because I don't pay no attention to that man. I wouldn't know his wife from the lady down the block.

African-American is a lot better term than was previously used.

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