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sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 1:25pm

 Servo wrote:

Which ones?  Those who project highly parochial, hyper-literal interpretations of the Holy Bible or the Koran?  Six of one...

 

Man, you will get no argument with me there! I have come to despise all organized religion even when it is practiced with the best intentions!{#Headache}
Servo

Servo Avatar

Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 1:14pm

 musik_knut wrote:
Something The Church Commission...
 
I see that you're still promoting your straw man argument.  But the truth is that the CIA is a part of the Executive branch, and far more susceptible to the Executive's wants and desires than those of Congress...

Playing partisan politics does not alter reality, regardless how zealacious you get...

Servo

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Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 1:06pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
Yes, I agree. However, it is not these hardcore fundamentalist that I am most concerned with...
 
Which ones?  Those who project highly parochial, hyper-literal interpretations of the Holy Bible or the Koran?  Six of one...


Servo

Servo Avatar

Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 1:02pm

 EleventhMan wrote:
You're missing the point, MK which is this:  no matter the result, the technique was torture, pure and simple.  And against every principle upon which this country was founded and purports to uphold.  I don't care how many paid hack lawyers write how many opinions about its legality, it was WRONG.  And we the majority of American people know it.

{#Yes}  Yes, we do!


Servo

Servo Avatar

Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 12:52pm

 kurtster wrote:
From what I have come to know, going back to the Pirates of the Barbary Coast (and to ignore that is foolish at best), the only thing that the radical Islamists respect is brute force...
 
No...correction...the only thing that the US has tried vis a vis the Arabs...  It is not only ignorant, but highly provocative to perpetuate stereotypes of people who have become our equals, at the very least...

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 9:58am

 Servo wrote:

Who is exploiting who, though?

IIRC, the US' right wing has been using 18-19th century technology well past its expiration date.  Gunboat Diplomacy was successful only when the abused nations were unable to function on their own.  When it was banana republics that needed the US' naval power to get their product to a broader market, the US won every time.  But by the time OPEC was created, it was obvious that the US had lost control of its minion nations.  But it wasn't until the Iranian Revolution that the US was forced to face the fact that "the natives" didn't exactly worship us as liberators.

Gunship Diplomacy 2.0, Star Wars Edition was doomed to fail as miserably as version 1.x ("Let's bisect an ancient oriental culture, without a plan, end game or exit strategy.")  That much was as plain as the nose on my face.

Look, you may prevent a few more attacks in certain circumstances by the use of torture, but ultimately there is no way to prevent them all.

I'll go one step further and say that torture not only fails to achieve its stated goal; it is also a GIGANTIC "tell", screaming to all who will listen that the torturer is operating from a position of weakness.  You might as well leave the back door open, and your revolver on the table at the other end of the room, while you idly gaze at the moon...

The only good source of HUMINT is from a properly maintained field operation run by your own people, period.

This is why terrorism works, it give the powerless tools to fight against the powerful. The only way to ultimately defeat terrorism is to hold to the democratic ideals that separates us from them, giving the Jihadist no more fodder to feed the long suffering populist of the region who otherwise feel powerless as their countries governments ignore their own peoples needs to placate the US governments unquenchable thirst for inexpensive oil.

At this point, it's too late to win very many hearts and minds.  It's a lost game for the US.  The best that this country can do for itself is use the Obama administration to its fullest political potential, as an example of "regime change", and more importantly, of repentance for Americans' past wrongs.

Should the President kow tow in the House of Saud?  Hell yes!  A trace of humility is more powerful than a thousand atom bombs...

...and it costs us nothing in US Dollars...

 
Something The Church Commission, Chaired and led by Sen. Church, D-ID, pretty much gutted. Later, Sen. Torricelli, D-NJ, would seek to end all US human intel, calling it unseemly. And on The Floor of The US Senate, Sen. Kerry, D-MA, once proposed an end to all US Intel budgets, a move Sen. Kennedy, D-MA, called irresponsible.

You can not have human intel if one Party continues to bury it, demolish it or ridicule it. Getting after The CIA is old hat for Democrats...
As for genuflecting before another ruler, that is part of the reason we tossed aside the yoke of King George III. President Obama saw fit to revive genuflection before another ruler...you call it humility? Fine. I'll call it the actions of an obedient servant.

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 9:19am

 bokey wrote:

No, I'm kind of WW2'ed out.When my mom was in high school her brother was in Nazi prison camp with a bullet hole in his chest and no meds. If I think about Germany too much I start looking up plans to build nuclear weapons.
 Anyway, I've gone overboard on this topic before and in that light I am out of this thread.


 

I hear ya!{#Cool}
bokey

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 9:17am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Did you catch any of the WWII Behind Closed Doors documentaries that aired last week? Even though I agree that the Russian people suffered as no other in WWII, Stalin was a bigger monster than even Hitler!

 
No, I'm kind of WW2'ed out. When my mom was in high school her brother was in Nazi prison camp with a bullet hole in his chest and no meds. If I think about Germany too much I start looking up plans to build nuclear weapons.
 Anyway, I've gone overboard on this topic before and in that light I am out of this thread.



sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 9:05am

 bokey wrote:

It wasn't clearly explained, that's what made The West Wing one of the few watchable shows in TV history.You had to put a little work in to understanding it.

 I'm sure if you were to view the episode in question again you'd get it.

 

Did you catch any of the WWII Behind Closed Doors documentaries that aired last week? Even though I agree that the Russian people suffered as no other in WWII, Stalin was a bigger monster than even Hitler!
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 9:04am

 zipper wrote:
I'm with the Kurts. Bravo, MK.

 
zip...
Greetings with wishes for a great Memorial Day Weekend for you and yours *and for all in this forum and this GREAT COUNTRY*

Thanks...greatly appreciated.
with regards,
mk

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:58am

 hippiechick wrote:

The memos were released because an unknown party sued using the Freedom of Information Act, so they were going to be released anyway.

I don't care what they did. We don't do that. That is why we are not terrorists. That is why we are "the greatest country in the world." We have rights, protected by the Bill of Rights, and it doesn't say just Americans.
 

The FOIA allows a President, with a pen in hand, to declare any request subject to jeopardizing National Security.  The gross ignorance many have on FOIA is no excuse to just say, they were going to be released anyway. That's not how The FOIA was cobbled together, thankfully. Otherwise, anyone could request anything, even that which would cause great harm to this Country and there would be no recourse, no denial, no exclusion.


Ever read The Preamble to The Constitution? 'We The People...do ordain and establish this Constitution for The United States of America.' Nowhere in that document is there a suggestion that it is global in application. I know it is fanciful thought among many on your side, including some slime ball lawyers, but The Founders, in The Constitution and in writings afterwards, were specific for whom The Constitution was for: WE THE PEOPLE...OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I await some point in time when someone will declare the finding of a 'global community clause'.
bokey

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:57am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Yea, it has been like 5 years or so since I have seen this episode so I was obviously and very loosely paraphrasing. However, I may be wrong, but I don't think that her reply was clearly explained as a metaphor for the battle of Stalingrad and I interpreted it as a general conditioning to the long hard Russian winters making them tough people. To me that makes more sense as an all encompassing molding of the Russian psyche over hundreds of years. That is just the way that I took it.

 
It wasn't clearly explained, that's what made The West Wing one of the few watchable shows in TV history. You had to put a little work in to understanding it.

 I'm sure if you were to view the episode in question again you'd get it.


sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:55am

 arsenault wrote:

so your solution to terrorism is to just be really nice, do nothing,  and hope they stop blowing us up?  {#Stupid}
glad you are not in charge Pollyanna....

 

No.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:51am

 hippiechick wrote:

The Bush Admin gave the terrorist groups 8 years to build madrassas in countries that did not support their own people, and use these schools to raise up little terrorists.

If we had given humanitarian aid to these people instead of killing them, we might not be in this mess today.

So, because the other side is not "civilized" that means we should become like them? (I would argue that "civilized" nations are just as bad, we just use different methods)
 

No its not about being civilized.  That is the point.  What is civilized about Convert or Die and how can that proposition have a civilized response ?
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:51am

 EleventhMan wrote:

You're missing the point, MK which is this:  no matter the result, the technique was torture, pure and simple.  And against every principle upon which this country was founded and purports to uphold.  I don't care how many paid hack lawyers write how many opinions about its legality, it was WRONG.  And we the majority of American people know it.  The result is not the issue. And, by the way, more than one intel officer who participated in those "enhanced techniques"  (even the use of the phrase makes my stomach turn) readily admits that they just don't know if they could have gotten the same info without the torture....and will never know, now that it's past history.  One officer even has gone on record stating that he believes he was more successful using conventional methods when the torture didn't appear to be getting answers.

THAT is the point MK....Cheney can blow hard all he wants, the fact is it was morally, ethically, humanely WRONG.
 

Eleventh...
Greetings with wishes that you and yours enjoy a fun, safe Memorial Day Weekend...

First, I don't believe water boarding is torture. Beheading is. Slamming planes with passengers into buildings, is. Planning attacks on civilians only, is, as it purposely tortures a population with fear. Second, there does seem to be a split among intel types on the efficacy of using certain techniques. It is more than worth noting that Mr. Dennis Blair, President Obama's intel czar, would seem to come down on the 'it worked' side. You don't hear him being taken to task: seems anyone or anything connected to this administration is given a free pass. You also do not hear a call that ALL water boarding be stopped, even that which is applied to US Troops in training. If water boarding is so foul, so vile, so pernicious, why not stop it for all? Seems some are more intent in forming yet another hug-a-committed-jihadist movement. Sympathies seem to always fall with those determined to do us harm. To kill our families and friends, to lay waste to our cities.
Have we forgotten Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl? Who stood and spoke for their rights?
We can have different view points on this and other matters and still be in the same boat together. We just don't agree on how best to row the boat.
with regards,
mk
arsenault

arsenault Avatar

Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:51am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Yes, and this is the real crux of the argument. You cannot defeat terrorism by force by its very nature, the only way to defeat terrorism is to take away the motivation in the hearts of the perpetrators and simply meeting force with force does nothing but feed the beast giving the exploitative Jihadist leaders precisely what they want. Look, you may prevent a few more attacks in certain circumstances by the use of torture, but ultimately there is no way to prevent them all. This is why terrorism works, it give the powerless tools to fight against the powerful. The only way to ultimately defeat terrorism is to hold to the democratic ideals that separates us from them, giving the Jihadist no more fodder to feed the long suffering populace of the region who otherwise feel powerless as their countries governments ignore their own peoples needs to placate the US governments unquenchable thirst for inexpensive oil.
 
so your solution to terrorism is to just be really nice, do nothing,  and hope they stop blowing us up?  {#Stupid}
glad you are not in charge Pollyanna....


KurtfromLaQuinta

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Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:45am

 EleventhMan wrote:

I agree with you on one point MK...Nancy Pelosi is as slimy and corrupt as everyone in Bush's administration, and needs to go away NOW.
 
They are everywhere unfortunately.

sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:43am

 bokey wrote:

Umm, no. Barlet asked the Russian ambassador roughly"I don't understand how Russia feels it can  act this way"(paraphrased)

 And the Russian ambassador replies "Because of a long, cold winter"  - which is clearly a reference to the Battle of Stalingrad and the winter of 1942-43.Hitler needed to get past Stalingrad to get to the oil fields.
 This battle is a big  reason why we can all laugh at Exo and his mangling of English, rather than have him be able to laugh at our poor German. Because of what the Russians did , the war turned.

2 million dead in one battle.

 

Yea, it has been like 5 years or so since I have seen this episode so I was obviously and very loosely paraphrasing. However, I may be wrong, but I don't think that her reply was clearly explained as a metaphor for the battle of Stalingrad and I interpreted it as a general conditioning to the long hard Russian winters making them tough people. To me that makes more sense as an all encompassing molding of the Russian psyche over hundreds of years. That is just the way that I took it.
KurtfromLaQuinta

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Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:42am

 pjcle wrote:


Well put? !  Are you kidding me?

 
Would I kid you.

bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:25am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Yea, it reminds of a West Wing episode when Bartlett basically ask why the Russians don't trust anybody and the Russian lady replies "it gets very cold in Russia". Really it all comes back to natural resources and the weather. {#Sunny}

 
Umm, no. Barlet asked the Russian ambassador roughly"I don't understand how Russia feels it can  act this way"(paraphrased)

 And the Russian ambassador replies "Because of a long, hard winter"  - which is clearly a reference to the Battle of Stalingrad and the winter of 1942-43. Hitler needed to get past Stalingrad to get to the oil fields.
 This battle is a big  reason why we can all laugh at Exo and his mangling of English, rather than have him be able to laugh at our poor German. Because of what the Russians did , the war turned.

2 million dead in one battle.


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