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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Cheney, Dick Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
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ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:17am

 Lazy8 wrote:

There's next?
 
Oh yes. I used sausage for the first wave. Maybe cold chicken for the next.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:13am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Done. Next?
 
There's next?

ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 8:11am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Let's bomb ourselves! With food!
 
Done. Next?

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:43am

hippiechick wrote:
The Bush Admin gave the terrorist groups 8 years to build madrassas in countries that did not support their own people, and use these schools to raise up little terrorists.

Stupid George Bushes! Bomb the madrassas now!
If we had given humanitarian aid to these people instead of killing them, we might not be in this mess today.

...er, I mean bomb the madrassas with food!
So, because the other side is not "civilized" that means we should become like them? (I would argue that "civilized" nations are just as bad, we just use different methods)

...er, never mind! Let's bomb ourselves! With food!

(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:35am

Well, he's not in office anymore but

The dream nightmare goes on.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:29am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Hey HC! Apparently we share political and musical opinions!{#Wave}

 
You mean radical left wing? {#Lol}

It's obvious, at least to me, what has been going on with the Republican Party for many years, but there are those who still hang on to their beliefs that Cheney etal were actually doing what they did for the good of the country, as opposed to changing the New World Order.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:23am

 hippiechick wrote:

The Bush Admin gave the terrorist groups 8 years to build madrassas in countries that did not support their own people, and use these schools to raise up little terrorists.

If we had given humanitarian aid to these people instead of killing them, we might not be in this mess today.

So, because the other side is not "civilized" that means we should become like them? (I would argue that "civilized" nations are just as bad, we just use different methods)
 

Hey HC! Apparently we share political and musical opinions!{#Wave}
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:21am

 kurtster wrote:

Yes, we seem to basically agree.  But I will disagree with you on recruiting the young.  As long as there is abject poverty and horrible living conditions to contrast with the ways of the affluent West, that is all that is needed to recruit.  Torture is just the frosting on the cake, an additional tool to expliot.  We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Therefore, in the case of fighting Jihad, I vote we do.  We don't go around randomly kidnapping citizens of civilized nations while within the boundaries of their home nation and torture for the sake of torture.  I think that we as the US need to make that distinction and reserve and promote torture for Jihadists.  Can there be an endless supply of virgins for the martyrs ?  We need to challenge that notion as well.  More sexism on the part of Jihadists.

In dealing with civilized cultures, indeed 2 wrongs do not make a right.  But in the case of Jihadists, only one side is civilized, so that rule does not apply, IMO.  I see it as its either us or them and to take anything off the table is to lose.  The Jihadists take nothing off the table.
I realize this is an extreme position, but the position of the Jihadists is the most extreme and inflexible of all.
 

Yea, it reminds of a West Wing episode when Bartlett basically ask why the Russians don't trust anybody and the Russian lady replies "it gets very cold in Russia". Really it all comes back to natural resources and the weather.{#Sunny}
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:17am

 kurtster wrote:

Yes, we seem to basically agree.  But I will disagree with you on recruiting the young.  As long as there is abject poverty and horrible living conditions to contrast with the ways of the affluent West, that is all that is needed to recruit.  Torture is just the frosting on the cake, an additional tool to expliot.  We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Therefore, in the case of fighting Jihad, I vote we do.  We don't go around randomly kidnapping citizens of civilized nations while within the boundaries of their home nation and torture for the sake of torture.  I think that we as the US need to make that distinction and reserve and promote torture for Jihadists.  Can there be an endless supply of virgins for the martyrs ?  We need to challenge that notion as well.  More sexism on the part of Jihadists.

In dealing with civilized cultures, indeed 2 wrongs do not make a right.  But in the case of Jihadists, only one side is civilized, so that rule does not apply, IMO.  I see it as its either us or them and to take anything off the table is to lose.  The Jihadists take nothing off the table.
I realize this is an extreme position, but the position of the Jihadists is the most extreme and inflexible of all.
 
The Bush Admin gave the terrorist groups 8 years to build madrassas in countries that did not support their own people, and use these schools to raise up little terrorists.

If we had given humanitarian aid to these people instead of killing them, we might not be in this mess today.

So, because the other side is not "civilized" that means we should become like them? (I would argue that "civilized" nations are just as bad, we just use different methods)

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 7:07am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Yes, I agree. However, it is not these hardcore fundamentalist that I am most concerned with. You are correct, these people will always be filled with hate and ignorance and they will always hate Western progressive societies. I am talking about the young impressionable average Muslim child, these evil brutes you speak of will have a much harder time recruiting if we display strength and character by not knee jerk reacting with the same methods they employ upon us, you know 2 wrongs don't make a right. That is my main point.

 
Yes, we seem to basically agree.  But I will disagree with you on recruiting the young.  As long as there is abject poverty and horrible living conditions to contrast with the ways of the affluent West, that is all that is needed to recruit.  Torture is just the frosting on the cake, an additional tool to expliot.  We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Therefore, in the case of fighting Jihad, I vote we do.  We don't go around randomly kidnapping citizens of civilized nations while within the boundaries of their home nation and torture for the sake of torture.  I think that we as the US need to make that distinction and reserve and promote torture for Jihadists.  Can there be an endless supply of virgins for the martyrs ?  We need to challenge that notion as well.  More sexism on the part of Jihadists.

In dealing with civilized cultures, indeed 2 wrongs do not make a right.  But in the case of Jihadists, only one side is civilized, so that rule does not apply, IMO.  I see it as its either us or them and to take anything off the table is to lose.  The Jihadists take nothing off the table.
I realize this is an extreme position, but the position of the Jihadists is the most extreme and inflexible of all.

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 6:44am

 kurtster wrote:


From what I have come to know, going back to the Pirates of the Barbary Coast (and to ignore that is foolish at best), the only thing that the radical Islamists respect is brute force.  They look at appeasement and negotiations based upon "why can't we all just get along" as a sign of weakness and further justification for their Jihad.  This is the lesson Jefferson learned.  These radical Islamists are in the same place now as they were in Jefferson's day, they have ceased to evolve, nor do they wish to evolve.  The stone age is just fine with them.  They still like to club their women and drag them into their tents.  Terrorism is a tool of Jihad, not the other way around.  Jihad is the cause, not terrorism.  Western ways threaten their domination of women amongst other things.  The 2 primary drives in life are food and sex, and western ways are attacking their approach towards sex.  How much more fundamental can we take this argument ?

Furthermore, the battlecry of Jihad used to be "Convert or Die, Infidel".  Now its just "Die MF".  The former was no choice to begin with in my opinion and the latter is well, what it is.  The Jihadists offer us no choice with either option.  Since Jihadists seek a genocide against Christians and Jews, what choices do we have in response ?  IMO, none.  Its kill or be killed.  Their are no innocents in war and to think otherwise is to lose.

Never before has the expression of "all's fair in love and war" been more true.

.
Edit:  And to support the above about "all's fair", I cite former President Clinton who used Rendition and has been quoted saying, "the ends justify the means".

 

Yes, I agree. However, it is not these hardcore fundamentalist that I am most concerned with. You are correct, these people will always be filled with hate and ignorance and they will always hate Western progressive societies. I am talking about the young impressionable average Muslim child, these evil brutes you speak of will have a much harder time recruiting if we display strength and character by not knee jerk reacting with the same methods they employ upon us, you know 2 wrongs don't make a right. That is my main point.
EleventhMan

EleventhMan Avatar

Gender: Female


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 6:34am

 musik_knut wrote:


Mr. Bush rode off to the sunsets of Texas. He has kept to his word not to criticize Mr. Obama. That's how it was done for the longest time. And then, Al Gore pretty much broke the mold *someone on another thread wrote how Mr. Gore had kept his nose out of politics, that is patently false* by repeatedly attacking not only Mr. Bush's policies, but Mr. Bush himself and in one of the more disgusting attacks against a sitting US President and his policies and done so while on foreign soil, Mr. Gore blistered US Policy in front of a very approving and appreciative audience in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. In my political memory, there are two national politicians who did not honor the code of silence, if you will, and they are Mr. Carter and Mr. Gore. *as a throw away point, Sen. Kerry too,  found it accetable to attack US Policy while on foreign soil*
As for Mr. Cheney. He feels actions taken while he and Mr. Bush were in power, are being distorted, twisted if you will, and all for political purpose. He would like the story set straight, at least on intel matters.
Would you not fight for materials that prove your points? Materials held by those who spear you at every turn? I know I would.
This is a big deal South of the 49th. Our Speaker has called out The CIA. The CIA, under a former Rep. in The House, a Democrat, has called her on her call. Some are almost asking the certain individuals be boiled in oil, while those claiming innocence or understandable actions, are blocked at each turn. This is both a national security fight and a Party free for all, including in-Party fighting *see: Speaker Pelosi and CIA Director and Former US Rep, D-CA, Leon Panetta*. Mr. Obama would like to appear to be beyond the fray in this matter, but he authorized certain memos for release, those which question Team Bush actions, and blocks those which would prove some actions taken by Team Bush, were of great benefit to the safety of The People, here and abroad.
Some good old fashioned bare-knuckle politics in full view.

 
I agree with you on one point MK...Nancy Pelosi is as slimy and corrupt as everyone in Bush's administration, and needs to go away NOW.

EleventhMan

EleventhMan Avatar

Gender: Female


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 6:31am

 musik_knut wrote:


Real simple: Mr. Obama authorized the release of certain memos pertaining to those detained in Gitmo, memos that outlined certain enhanced interrogation techniques. The revelation of such techniques were used to thrust attacks against Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. Mr. Cheney asked that memos showing invaluable intel was gleamed from some of those detained at Gitmo, intel that might well have saved  perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives. No, those can't be released, they would compromise methodologies used. Well, that is exactly what the released memos did. So, in short, Mr. Cheney asks that memos which would support his contention that lives were saved by employed methods, be released given that memos that were released clearly had a political purpose. That purpose was two-fold: what was done at Gitmo and who authorized it. It was a blunt political club wielded by Team Obama. I think in fairness, Mr. Cheney's requests should be honored. As an added bonus, Mr. Cheney's requests, if honored, would buttress the contention that certain interrogation techniques did/do save lives. A point supported by President Obama's intel czar, Mr. Dennis Blair.
Why not offer the additional memos for public review? Mr. Obama has already compromised sensitive national security information. It can not be further compromised. So, why not honor the requests of Mr. Cheney? Politics, raw, pure and simple won't allow it.
As for why is he still talking? Last I heard, he was still a free man in a free country. We've not yet reached the point that ousted public servants are subject to exile, even though some seem to move along those thought lines. May they never realize such a goal.

 
You're missing the point, MK which is this:  no matter the result, the technique was torture, pure and simple.  And against every principle upon which this country was founded and purports to uphold.  I don't care how many paid hack lawyers write how many opinions about its legality, it was WRONG.  And we the majority of American people know it.  The result is not the issue. And, by the way, more than one intel officer who participated in those "enhanced techniques"  (even the use of the phrase makes my stomach turn) readily admits that they just don't know if they could have gotten the same info without the torture....and will never know, now that it's past history.  One officer even has gone on record stating that he believes he was more successful using conventional methods when the torture didn't appear to be getting answers.

THAT is the point MK....Cheney can blow hard all he wants, the fact is it was morally, ethically, humanely WRONG.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 6:24am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Yes, and this is the real crux of the argument. You cannot defeat terrorism by force by its very nature, the only way to defeat terrorism is to take away the motivation in the hearts of the perpetrators and simply meeting force with force does nothing but feed the beast giving the exploitative Jihadist leaders precisely what they want. Look, you may prevent a few more attacks in certain circumstances by the use of torture, but ultimately there is no way to prevent them all. This is why terrorism works, it give the powerless tools to fight against the powerful. The only way to ultimately defeat terrorism is to hold to the democratic ideals that separates us from them, giving the Jihadist no more fodder to feed the long suffering populace of the region who otherwise feel powerless as their countries governments ignore their own peoples needs to placate the US governments unquenchable thirst for inexpensive oil.
 

From what I have come to know, going back to the Pirates of the Barbary Coast (and to ignore that is foolish at best), the only thing that the radical Islamists respect is brute force.  They look at appeasement and negotiations based upon "why can't we all just get along" as a sign of weakness and further justification for their Jihad.  This is the lesson Jefferson learned.  These radical Islamists are in the same place now as they were in Jefferson's day, they have ceased to evolve, nor do they wish to evolve.  The stone age is just fine with them.  They still like to club their women and drag them into their tents.  Terrorism is a tool of Jihad, not the other way around.  Jihad is the cause, not terrorism.  Western ways threaten their domination of women amongst other things.  The 2 primary drives in life are food and sex, and western ways are attacking their approach towards sex.  How much more fundamental can we take this argument ?

Furthermore, the battlecry of Jihad used to be "Convert or Die, Infidel".  Now its just "Die MF".  The former was no choice to begin with in my opinion and the latter is well, what it is.  The Jihadists offer us no choice with either option.  Since Jihadists seek a genocide against Christians and Jews, what choices do we have in response ?  IMO, none.  Its kill or be killed.  Their are no innocents in war and to think otherwise is to lose.

Never before has the expression of "all's fair in love and war" been more true.

.
Edit:  And to support the above about "all's fair", I cite former President Clinton who used Rendition and has been quoted saying, "the ends justify the means".


helenofjoy

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Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Gender: Female


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 5:02am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Yes, and this is the real crux of the argument. You cannot defeat terrorism by force by its very nature, the only way to defeat terrorism is to take away the motivation in the hearts of the perpetrators and simply meeting force with force does nothing but feed the beast giving the exploitative Jihadist leaders precisely what they want. Look, you may prevent a few more attacks in certain circumstances by the use of torture, but ultimately there is no way to prevent them all. This is why terrorism works, it give the powerless tools to fight against the powerful. The only way to ultimately defeat terrorism is to hold to the democratic ideals that separates us from them, giving the Jihadist no more fodder to feed the long suffering populace of the region who otherwise feel powerless as their countries governments ignore their own peoples needs to placate the US governments unquenchable thirst for inexpensive oil.
 
Here Here~!

Servo

Servo Avatar

Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 4:58am

 sirdroseph wrote:
Yes, and this is the real crux of the argument. You cannot defeat terrorism by force by its very nature, the only way to defeat terrorism is to take away the motivation in the hearts of the perpetrators and simply meeting force with force does nothing but feed the beast, giving the exploitative Jihadist leaders precisely what they want.
 
Who is exploiting who, though?

IIRC, the US' right wing has been using 18-19th century technology well past its expiration date.  Gunboat Diplomacy was successful only when the abused nations were unable to function on their own.  When it was banana republics that needed the US' naval power to get their product to a broader market, the US won every time.  But by the time OPEC was created, it was obvious that the US had lost control of its minion nations.  But it wasn't until the Iranian Revolution that the US was forced to face the fact that "the natives" didn't exactly worship us as liberators.

Gunship Diplomacy 2.0, Star Wars Edition was doomed to fail as miserably as version 1.x ("Let's bisect an ancient oriental culture, without a plan, end game or exit strategy.")  That much was as plain as the nose on my face.

Look, you may prevent a few more attacks in certain circumstances by the use of torture, but ultimately there is no way to prevent them all.

I'll go one step further and say that torture not only fails to achieve its stated goal; it is also a GIGANTIC "tell", screaming to all who will listen that the torturer is operating from a position of weakness.  You might as well leave the back door open, and your revolver on the table at the other end of the room, while you idly gaze at the moon...

The only good source of HUMINT is from a properly maintained field operation run by your own people, period.

This is why terrorism works, it give the powerless tools to fight against the powerful. The only way to ultimately defeat terrorism is to hold to the democratic ideals that separates us from them, giving the Jihadist no more fodder to feed the long suffering populist of the region who otherwise feel powerless as their countries governments ignore their own peoples needs to placate the US governments unquenchable thirst for inexpensive oil.

At this point, it's too late to win very many hearts and minds.  It's a lost game for the US.  The best that this country can do for itself is use the Obama administration to its fullest political potential, as an example of "regime change", and more importantly, of repentance for Americans' past wrongs.

Should the President kow tow in the House of Saud?  Hell yes!  A trace of humility is more powerful than a thousand atom bombs...

...and it costs us nothing in US Dollars...


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2009 - 3:52am

 Servo wrote:

If you're referring to things that take place covertly amongst the intelligence community, that is completely different from overtly kidnapping people from sovereign nations, and parading them around like prizes.  The former has a long tradition of many unwritten rules, and tends to work quite well for what it does.  The latter is an exercise in grandiosity that takes "the ugly American" to criminal depths.  We should not be surprised that it accomplishes the exact opposite of what it claims to do.
 
Yes, and this is the real crux of the argument. You cannot defeat terrorism by force by its very nature, the only way to defeat terrorism is to take away the motivation in the hearts of the perpetrators and simply meeting force with force does nothing but feed the beast giving the exploitative Jihadist leaders precisely what they want. Look, you may prevent a few more attacks in certain circumstances by the use of torture, but ultimately there is no way to prevent them all. This is why terrorism works, it give the powerless tools to fight against the powerful. The only way to ultimately defeat terrorism is to hold to the democratic ideals that separates us from them, giving the Jihadist no more fodder to feed the long suffering populace of the region who otherwise feel powerless as their countries governments ignore their own peoples needs to placate the US governments unquenchable thirst for inexpensive oil.

arsenault

arsenault Avatar

Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male


Posted: May 22, 2009 - 9:52pm

 pjcle wrote:


Well put? !  Are you kidding me?
 But if you like Dick Cheney so much, why don't you go marry him!   Snap.  {#Propeller}  I made a zinger.  But did I make my point?  I don't think so.

Alternatively, since you live in a country that is founded on the belief that All people are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights, and it's a government made by, for and of the people, and if that upsets you, well, maybe a change of venue is in order.  Just a thought. {#Sunny}

 
i think when your response is 'why don't you marry him' or 'america love it or leave it', you are conceding the fight.

{#Lol}

Servo

Servo Avatar

Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: May 22, 2009 - 9:24pm

 pjcle wrote:

No governement, not even the USA will ever prosecute itself for torturing the enemy.  By the time you declare war, and start the killing, you are pretty certain that you are right and have already forgiven yourself everything to come...

...Until we have an international body with some moral authority, we in the western world just need to vote for people with a conscience.

 
Conversely, we as a nation need to grow a conscience, so that we will elect a government that will take us back to our previous position of leadership when it comes to ethics and morality, and catch up with the rest of the civilized world in this regard.

I disagree about governmental self-prosecution.  Ever since Spiro Agnew went to prison, and Richard Nixon fled from office to escape a prison cell of his own, the notion that "if we ignore and deny, it will go away" has become epidemic in US government.  The problem is that it does not work...EVER!

 

By the way, it's very possiblem, and rumors have always been, that all our Presidents have sent, or "had" certain people sent to detention camps known for using "harsh questioning techniques".  It may not be as unusual as we think, so let's not act like we're totally shocked.

 

If you're referring to things that take place covertly amongst the intelligence community, that is completely different from overtly kidnapping people from sovereign nations, and parading them around like prizes.  The former has a long tradition of many unwritten rules, and tends to work quite well for what it does.  The latter is an exercise in grandiosity that takes "the ugly American" to criminal depths.  We should not be surprised that it accomplishes the exact opposite of what it claims to do.


pjcle

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Location: Sticks
Gender: Female


Posted: May 22, 2009 - 8:54pm

 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:

Well put Mr Knut.
 

Well put? !  Are you kidding me?

The best he can do is say that he hasn't joined a pity party for terrorists ... what?   Are you five?  Well the people here are having a conversation about how decent societies should be run.  But if you like Dick Cheney so much, why don't you go marry him!   Snap.  {#Propeller}  I made a zinger.  But did I make my point?  I don't think so.

On the other hand, I do agree the guy "just had water put up his nose" - which isn't a big deal, happens when you swim even, so I suppose we need a hero like you to video you with water up your nose - that would show all those people who live in civilized societies that they are wrong! once and for all.   

Alternatively, since you live in a country that is founded on the belief that All people are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights, and it's a government made by, for and of the people, and if that upsets you, well, maybe a change of venue is in order.  Just a thought. {#Sunny}


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