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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Cheney, Dick Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
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evenso

evenso Avatar



Posted: May 30, 2009 - 4:19pm

 rachlan wrote:

what is he lookin at?

Rumor was a naked space alien. However, it has been debunked by a professional photo analyst who basically looked at it and laughed.

cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: May 29, 2009 - 1:40pm

 evenso wrote:
The infamous naked space alien in the sunglasses image. (Debunked)

 
What we have heah... is a failure... to communicate.

rachlan

rachlan Avatar

Location: nyc
Gender: Female


Posted: May 29, 2009 - 1:27pm

 evenso wrote:
The infamous naked space alien in the sunglasses image. (Debunked)

 
what is he lookin at?

Monkeysdad

Monkeysdad Avatar

Location: Simi Valley, CA
Gender: Male


Posted: May 29, 2009 - 1:14pm

 Servo wrote:

Conversely, we as a nation need to grow a conscience, so that we will elect a government that will take us back to our previous position of leadership when it comes to ethics and morality, and catch up with the rest of the civilized world in this regard.

I disagree about governmental self-prosecution.  Ever since Spiro Agnew went to prison, and Richard Nixon fled from office to escape a prison cell of his own, the notion that "if we ignore and deny, it will go away" has become epidemic in US government.  The problem is that it does not work...EVER!

 

By the way, it's very possiblem, and rumors have always been, that all our Presidents have sent, or "had" certain people sent to detention camps known for using "harsh questioning techniques".  It may not be as unusual as we think, so let's not act like we're totally shocked.

 

If you're referring to things that take place covertly amongst the intelligence community, that is completely different from overtly kidnapping people from sovereign nations, and parading them around like prizes.  The former has a long tradition of many unwritten rules, and tends to work quite well for what it does.  The latter is an exercise in grandiosity that takes "the ugly American" to criminal depths.  We should not be surprised that it accomplishes the exact opposite of what it claims to do.

 
Agnew went to prison?
When?

evenso

evenso Avatar



Posted: May 25, 2009 - 4:52pm

The infamous naked space alien in the sunglasses image. (Debunked)
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 25, 2009 - 8:34am

 romeotuma wrote:


It's the economy, stupid...

 
oh darn, there I go again...

{#Roflol}

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: May 25, 2009 - 8:09am

All I can say is, my world view is vastly different than yours, Kurt, MK, Arsenault
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 25, 2009 - 5:32am

This discussion has finally gone full circle or become a circle jerk, take your pick.

President Obama started all this crap with a partial release of documents.  Certain selected documents he could use to prove his point.  Well he told some of the truth.  Now we have former Vice President Cheney calling for the rest of the truth, or vis a vis, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Cheney may be a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them.

President Obama peaked into Pandora's Box to suit his own needs, naively thinking he could get away with it.  Well he couldn't and now he can't.  Even former President Bush isn't that stupid (and I ain't no fan of his).  Only Pelosi is more stupid than the previously mentioned. 

President Obama must circle the teleprompters and regroup with his party's leaders and decide just who is in charge, learn to speak with one voice and one teleprompter and quit calling each other liars as in the case of Pelosi and Panneta.  I'm with Panneta on this.

Releasing the requested documents can cause no further harm to US policies than has already been done.  The rest of the world still hates us and will continue to do so and President Obama has shown the rest of the world that he is just as stupid as Bush when it comes to handling sensitive matters with broad international implications.

So bring on transparency Mr. President.  You have broken nearly all your major promises, only Pelosi lies more than you.  How can you make matters worse ?  Release the documents and lets move on.

winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: May 25, 2009 - 5:03am

 arsenault wrote:

lets be honest abu ghraib was a fake scandal...it was fake torture...and all  the more tragic because of that...
it  was the worst pr that could have happened...and if it was sanctioned, surely cameras would have been forbidden.
apart from the humiliation, no terrorists were harmed. should never have happened and the us army was responsible for
putting a stop to it and prosecuting the idiots responsible.
 
Jumping on detainees' injured legs? Sodomizing them with batons? Pouring acid on their skin? All that falls under "no harm, no foul"?

I don't think so. 
Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: May 25, 2009 - 4:46am

 arsenault wrote:
lets be honest abu ghraib was a fake scandal...it was fake torture...and all  the more tragic because of that...
it  was the worst pr that could have happened...and if it was sanctioned, surely cameras would have been forbidden.
apart from the humiliation, no terrorists were harmed. should never have happened and the us army was responsible for
putting a stop to it and prosecuting the idiots responsible.
 


Fake? You mean, the pictures were staged?  Just one big frat party?  Guys stripped, facing down dogs, just havin' a good ole time?

No harm?  You're sure about that?  You have access to their psych files?

And it was all because the pictures got out?

arsenault

arsenault Avatar

Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male


Posted: May 25, 2009 - 1:29am

  
lets be honest abu ghraib was a fake scandal...it was fake torture...and all  the more tragic because of that...
it  was the worst pr that could have happened...and if it was sanctioned, surely cameras would have been forbidden.
apart from the humiliation, no terrorists were harmed. should never have happened and the us army was responsible for
putting a stop to it and prosecuting the idiots responsible.

evenso

evenso Avatar



Posted: May 24, 2009 - 9:54pm

 

With al-Libi, too, the initial approach was to read him his rights like any arrestee, one former member of the FBI team told NEWSWEEK. "He was basically cooperating with us." But this was post-9/11; President Bush had declared war on Al Qaeda, and in a series of covert directives, he had authorized the CIA to set up secret interrogation facilities and to use new, harsher methods. The CIA, says the FBI source, was "fighting with us tooth and nail."

 

The handling of al-Libi touched off a long-running battle over interrogation tactics inside the administration. It is a struggle that continued right up until the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in April—and it extended into the White House, with Condoleezza Rice's National Security Council pitted against lawyers for the White House counsel and the vice president. Indeed, one reason the prison abuse scandal won't go away—two months after gruesome photos were published worldwide—is that a long paper trail of memos and directives from inside the administration has emerged, often leaked by those who disagreed with rougher means of questioning.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/54093




arsenault

arsenault Avatar

Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 9:15pm

 hippiechick wrote:

MK, for an intelligent man, you are extremely naive. It has been proven that these orders came from a much higher place. Cheney himself admitted that W. himself signed off on these orders.

If you want to argue, argue with facts, not the Party line.

 
wow...{#Stupid} apart from the mean spirited ad hominem attack  on MK, how about that zinger about Cheney admitting to culpability in the abu ghraib debacle! ! THAT NEVER  HAPPENED !! talk about  dealing with facts...? pot this is kettle...how would you describe her coloring.?{#No}

musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 4:50pm

 arighter2 wrote:

Let's not forget that the immature behavior of the reservists was inadvertently allowing photographs into the mainstream. While this necessitated the cover up scapegoating the troops and General Karpinski, the real crux of the issue is policy itself, which is why many of us believe the higher ups should be held to account. You may recall, it was Gitmo Commander General Geoffrey Miller who called for the Gitmoization of Abu Ghraib at the behest of SecDef. Donald Rumsfeld. The interrogation tactics used went well beyond waterboarding. Indeed, after reviewing Pentagon documents, the ACLU concluded 21 prisoners were killed. Colonel Karpinski (following demotion) herself has admitted that many of the prisoners were hidden from the Red Cross, a direct violation of The Geneva Convention..

 

ari,
Higher ups never pay their fair share in any fiasco, especially in the fog of war. If you have been a grunt, as many of us have, you would know: rank rolls downhill, so to speak.

mk
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 4:48pm

 hippiechick wrote:

MK, for an intelligent man, you are extremely naive. It has been proven that these orders came from a much higher place. Cheney himself admitted that W. himself signed off on these orders.

If you want to argue, argue with facts, not the Party line.
 

hc,
Mr. Bush signed off on the humilation of Abu Ghraib detainees? By the way, I don't do Party lines, I leave that to others who do it well. I will repeat: Mr. Obama can settle this dust up once and for all: release the requested memos. And quit hiding behind the falsely absurd notion that doing so would reveal techniques; that's already been accomplished with those memos Mr. Obama released. Mr. Cheney finds himself in a squabble with Mr. Obama who has the trump card. It makes no sense at all for Mr. Cheney to engage in a fruitless fishing venture. I trust as someone who had access to the most secret information held by the Government,  Mr. Cheney has legitimate reasons behind his request, notably, as he has stated: show the whole picture,  not the frames intended to make political points as Mr. Obama has done. I would think we would all like to see the whole of the picture. Apparently, some are content with less than what is available. If anyone is spewing a Party line, it is those who defend the selective releases authorized by Mr. Obama. Does Mr. Obama fear the truth? If we are to believe Mr. Obama's intel czar, Mr. Blair, Mr. Cheney is barking up the right tree on this. If the memos released have caused us damage, what further damage could be caused by additional memos being released?
I don't believe I'm naive, I freely confess to not knowing all the nuts and bolts of this topic.
Anyway, I have no more to say on this. I must be boring more than a few souls...
mk


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 11:35am

 musik_knut wrote:


ari...
Possible. Very possible that Mr. Cheney is trying to use a very clever ruse. But, I doubt it. Mr. Dennis Blair, intel czar, has stated that some solid intel was gleamed from enhanced techniques. That does two things: it buttresses Mr. Cheney's claim and cold stones claims that enchanced methods yielded nothing of use. Somewhere in between, lies the truth. Because of Mr. Cheney's push and Mr. Blair's comments, I am left with the believe that the champion of change is anything but. Instead, as I thought all along, Mr. Obama is just another politician, albeit one who managed the old wool pulling trick.
As for an ensuing firestorm, that has already taken place: to wit, the pathetic antics of Speaker Pelosi on this matter.
As for the GIs at Abu Ghraib: what would Mr. Cheney have done? Step aside because a handful of immature soldiers, 8,000 miles away, decided to engage in immature behavior? Some folks will never be satisfied on the resolution of that episode. Some will forever wish someone very high up, perhaps all the way up, was not taken down by an action they had no control over.

mk


 
MK, for an intelligent man, you are extremely naive. It has been proven that these orders came from a much higher place. Cheney himself admitted that W. himself signed off on these orders.

If you want to argue, argue with facts, not the Party line.

arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 10:22am

 musik_knut wrote:


ari...
Possible. Very possible that Mr. Cheney is trying to use a very clever ruse. But, I doubt it. Mr. Dennis Blair, intel czar, has stated that some solid intel was gleamed from enhanced techniques. That does two things: it buttresses Mr. Cheney's claim and cold stones claims that enchanced methods yielded nothing of use. Somewhere in between, lies the truth. Because of Mr. Cheney's push and Mr. Blair's comments, I am left with the believe that the champion of change is anything but. Instead, as I thought all along, Mr. Obama is just another politician, albeit one who managed the old wool pulling trick.
As for an ensuing firestorm, that has already taken place: to wit, the pathetic antics of Speaker Pelosi on this matter.
As for the GIs at Abu Ghraib: what would Mr. Cheney have done? Step aside because a handful of immature soldiers, 8,000 miles away, decided to engage in immature behavior? Some folks will never be satisfied on the resolution of that episode. Some will forever wish someone very high up, perhaps all the way up, was not taken down by an action they had no control over.

mk

 
Let's not forget that the immature behavior of the reservists was inadvertently allowing photographs into the mainstream. While this necessitated the cover up scapegoating the troops and General Karpinski, the real crux of the issue is policy itself, which is why many of us believe the higher ups should be held to account. You may recall, it was Gitmo Commander General Geoffrey Miller who called for the Gitmoization of Abu Ghraib at the behest of SecDef. Donald Rumsfeld. The interrogation tactics used went well beyond waterboarding. Indeed, after reviewing Pentagon documents, the ACLU concluded 21 prisoners were killed. Colonel Karpinski (following demotion) herself has admitted that many of the prisoners were hidden from the Red Cross, a direct violation of The Geneva Convention..


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 9:33am

 arighter2 wrote:

Perhaps Mr. Cheney is bluffing, knows the documents can't be released in toto because a firestorm would ensue. Don't forget, Mr. Cheney knew that torture was a political issue and he could've released documents supporting his side, if such documents exist, while still in office. Personally, it's very difficult for me to respect a man, well men, actually, who let a a bunch of undereducated West Virginian reservists take the fall for Abu Ghraib.

 

ari...
Possible. Very possible that Mr. Cheney is trying to use a very clever ruse. But, I doubt it. Mr. Dennis Blair, intel czar, has stated that some solid intel was gleamed from enhanced techniques. That does two things: it buttresses Mr. Cheney's claim and cold stones claims that enchanced methods yielded nothing of use. Somewhere in between, lies the truth. Because of Mr. Cheney's push and Mr. Blair's comments, I am left with the believe that the champion of change is anything but. Instead, as I thought all along, Mr. Obama is just another politician, albeit one who managed the old wool pulling trick.
As for an ensuing firestorm, that has already taken place: to wit, the pathetic antics of Speaker Pelosi on this matter.
As for the GIs at Abu Ghraib: what would Mr. Cheney have done? Step aside because a handful of immature soldiers, 8,000 miles away, decided to engage in immature behavior? Some folks will never be satisfied on the resolution of that episode. Some will forever wish someone very high up, perhaps all the way up, was not taken down by an action they had no control over.

mk
arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 9:23am

 musik_knut wrote:


Eleventh...
Thank you...and yes, disagree without being personally disagreeable {#Cheers}
Some would agree the release of certain Gitmo memos is the start of a healing process. I could not disagree more. Like others, I see the release of select memos as nothing but pure politics. Mr. Obama asks that we look forward, while never missing a beat on looking backward in order to bash Mr. Bush and his policies-decisions. Along comes Mr. Cheney, noting the selectivity of the memos released and he simply request: release those that show solid intel was gleamed from some Gitmo detainees. The argument that nothing came of the procedures used can be knocked aside or not; release those memos requested by Mr. Cheney. The maddness, the insult actually, from Team Obama that doing so would jeaopardize methodologies is voodoo wording: the memos released already spell out methodologies. Is Mr. Obama fearful that Mr. Cheney has an argument to make, one that supports his, Mr. Cheney's, assertions? An argument that would partially deflate those of Mr. Obama?
This is pure, raw, partisan politics in play and national security is being used by Mr. Obama for a game where he sets the rules. One could also argue that selective transparency is being used, too.
with regards,
mk

 
Perhaps Mr. Cheney is bluffing, knows the documents can't be released in toto because a firestorm would ensue. Don't forget, Mr. Cheney knew that torture was a political issue and he could've released documents supporting his side, if such documents exist, while still in office. Personally, it's very difficult for me to respect a man, well men, actually, who let a a bunch of undereducated West Virginian reservists take the fall for Abu Ghraib.
musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2009 - 9:08am

 EleventhMan wrote:

thanks MK for the good wishes..and the same to you & your family....we agree to disagree...

I don't agree with your belief on water boarding (and apparently neither do many many sources...I'm linking to Wikipedia here (which we can debate about it's legitimacy and intellectual veracity, but it does give several links to viable sources which is why I include it as a reasonable summary) link is here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding  

I am not saying that which has been done to other individuals (like Daniel Pearl & Nick Berg) is OK...you're right,  no one spoke for them....but "an eye for an eye" is a principle we as Americans strenuously fight to oppose in favor of upholding that which is a higher value purpose....namely that 2 wrongs don't make a right.  Slamming planes into buildings isn't torture, it's mass murder.  Fear is the goal, and by sinking to their level, they achieve it.  America is a young and naive country where attacks on our soil are concerned....we have been very fortunate in the relatively few horrors that have occurred on our turf...which is why our reactions are so extreme. We have enjoyed a relatively peaceful existence in the homeland, where conflicts with other nations is concerned.

I believe Obama's gesture in releasing the memos is to begin the healing...because like I've already said, the result of the torture isn't the point...it's the FACT of it.  And without acknowledging the errors in judgment by the previous administration, airing them out and admitting their wrong, we can't move on as a country.   We as a people were horrified to see photos of abuse at Abu Ghraib, and hear of the endless acts of arrogant, wanton decision making in the past several years.  The wound has to be opened & aired out to heal & move on.  I also believe it was done to repair relationships in the world...perhaps not with our enemies, but with allies and those who might be....taking the "high road" so to speak.  However, I'm not naive enough to believe Obama (or any politician) is doing this solely for the humanitarian aspects of it. 

The end just doesn't justify the means.

now off I go to enjoy the weekend...and I hope you & yours do as well

 

Eleventh...
Thank you...and yes, disagree without being personally disagreeable {#Cheers}
Some would agree the release of certain Gitmo memos is the start of a healing process. I could not disagree more. Like others, I see the release of select memos as nothing but pure politics. Mr. Obama asks that we look forward, while never missing a beat on looking backward in order to bash Mr. Bush and his policies-decisions. Along comes Mr. Cheney, noting the selectivity of the memos released and he simply request: release those that show solid intel was gleamed from some Gitmo detainees. The argument that nothing came of the procedures used can be knocked aside or not; release those memos requested by Mr. Cheney. The maddness, the insult actually, from Team Obama that doing so would jeaopardize methodologies is voodoo wording: the memos released already spell out methodologies. Is Mr. Obama fearful that Mr. Cheney has an argument to make, one that supports his, Mr. Cheney's, assertions? An argument that would partially deflate those of Mr. Obama?
This is pure, raw, partisan politics in play and national security is being used by Mr. Obama for a game where he sets the rules. One could also argue that selective transparency is being used, too.
with regards,
mk
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