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MrsHobieJoe

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Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 12, 2009 - 12:35pm

 miamizsun wrote: 

Buzz already posted this on 7 December.  I replied to that one.


Zep

Zep Avatar

Location: Funkytown


Posted: Dec 12, 2009 - 12:34pm

 HazzeSwede wrote:
Thanks for the post Zep !
I'm on the phone with Copenhagen
tellin them its OK and that they can
go back to work again ! {#Mrgreen}
 
Nasty business with the protestors today - hundreds arrested for testing cobblestones on shop windows.  Don't they know that just contributes to climate change by letting out all that warm air?  Evidently wearing masks is also illegal in København.  Guess I have to leave my Donald Duck special at home next summer. 
 
miamizsun

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Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 12, 2009 - 12:19pm

From Forbes.com

The Fiction of Climate Science.


Gary Sutton, 12.04.09, 10:00 AM ET 

Many of you are too young to remember, but in 1975 our government pushed "the coming ice age."

Random House dutifully printed "THE WEATHER CONSPIRACY ... coming of the New Ice Age." This may be the only book ever written by 18 authors. All 18 lived just a short sled ride from Washington, D.C. Newsweek fell in line and did a cover issue warning us of global cooling on April 28, 1975. And The New York Times, Aug. 14, 1976, reported "many signs that Earth may be headed for another ice age."

OK, you say, that's media. But what did our rational scientists say?

In 1974, the National Science Board announced: "During the last 20 to 30 years, world temperature has fallen, irregularly at first but more sharply over the last decade. Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end...leading into the next ice age."

You can't blame these scientists for sucking up to the fed's mantra du jour. Scientists live off grants. Remember how Galileo recanted his preaching about the earth revolving around the sun? He, of course, was about to be barbecued by his leaders. Today's scientists merely lose their cash flow. Threats work.

In 2002 I stood in a room of the Smithsonian. One entire wall charted the cooling of our globe over the last 60 million years. This was no straight line. The curve had two steep dips followed by leveling. There were no significant warming periods. Smithsonian scientists inscribed it across some 20 feet of plaster, with timelines.

Last year, I went back. That fresco is painted over. The same curve hides behind smoked glass, shrunk to three feet but showing the same cooling trend. Hey, why should the Smithsonian put its tax-free status at risk? If the politicians decide to whip up public fear in a different direction, get with it, oh ye subsidized servants. Downplay that embarrassing old chart and maybe nobody will notice.

Sorry, I noticed.

It's the job of elected officials to whip up panic. They then get re-elected. Their supporters fall in line.

Al Gore thought he might ride his global warming crusade back toward the White House. If you saw his movie, which opened showing cattle on his farm, you start to understand how shallow this is. The United Nations says that cattle, farting and belching methane, create more global warming than all the SUVs in the world. Even more laughably, Al and his camera crew flew first class for that film, consuming 50% more jet fuel per seat-mile than coach fliers, while his Tennessee mansion sucks as much carbon as 20 average homes.

His PR folks say he's "carbon neutral" due to some trades. I'm unsure of how that works, but, maybe there's a tribe in the Sudan that cannot have a campfire for the next hundred years to cover Al's energy gluttony. I'm just not sophisticated enough to know how that stuff works. But I do understand he flies a private jet when the camera crew is gone.

The fall of Saigon in the '70s may have distracted the shrill pronouncements about the imminent ice age. Science's prediction of "A full-blown, 10,000 year ice age," came from its March 1, 1975 issue. The Christian Science Monitor observed that armadillos were retreating south from Nebraska to escape the "global cooling" in its Aug. 27, 1974 issue.

That armadillo caveat seems reminiscent of today's tales of polar bears drowning due to glaciers disappearing.

While scientists march to the drumbeat of grant money, at least trees don't lie. Their growth rings show what's happened no matter which philosophy is in power. Tree rings show a mini ice age in Europe about the time Stradivarius crafted his violins. Chilled Alpine Spruce gave him tighter wood so the instruments sang with a new purity. But England had to give up the wines that the Romans cultivated while our globe cooled, switching from grapes to colder weather grains and learning to take comfort with beer, whisky and ales.

Yet many centuries earlier, during a global warming, Greenland was green. And so it stayed and was settled by Vikings for generations until global cooling came along. Leif Ericsson even made it to Newfoundland. His shallow draft boats, perfect for sailing and rowing up rivers to conquer villages, wouldn't have stood a chance against a baby iceberg.

Those sustained temperature swings, all before the evil economic benefits of oil consumption, suggest there are factors at work besides humans.

Today, as I peck out these words, the weather channel is broadcasting views of a freakish and early snow falling on Dallas. The Iowa state extension service reports that the record corn crop expected this year will have unusually large kernels, thanks to "relatively cool August and September temperatures." And on Jan. 16, 2007, NPR went politically incorrect, briefly, by reporting that "An unusually harsh winter frost, the worst in 20 years, killed much of the California citrus, avocados and flower crops."

To be fair, those reports are short-term swings. But the longer term changes are no more compelling, unless you include the ice ages, and then, perhaps, the panic attempts of the 1970s were right. Is it possible that if we put more CO2 in the air, we'd forestall the next ice age?

I can ask "outrageous" questions like that because I'm not dependent upon government money for my livelihood. From the witch doctors of old to the elected officials today, scaring the bejesus out of the populace maintains their status.

Sadly, the public just learned that our scientific community hid data and censored critics. Maybe the feds should drop this crusade and focus on our health care crisis. They should, of course, ignore the life insurance statistics that show every class of American and both genders are living longer than ever. That's another inconvenient fact.

Gary Sutton is co-founder of Teledesic and has been CEO of several other companies, including Knight Protective Industries and @Backup.

Editor's Note: This quote was mistakenly sourced from two separate National Science Board reports. We thank our readers for pointing out the error.

"During the last 20 to 30 years, world temperature has fallen, irregularly at first but more sharply over the last decade. Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end...leading into the next ice age."




HazzeSwede

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Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 12, 2009 - 12:18pm

Thanks for the post Zep !
I'm on the phone with Copenhagen
tellin them its OK and that they can
go back to work again ! {#Mrgreen}
Zep

Zep Avatar

Location: Funkytown


Posted: Dec 12, 2009 - 11:46am

AP IMPACT: Science not faked, but not pretty
BY SETH BORENSTEIN, RAPHAEL SATTER and MALCOLM RITTER, Associated Press Writers

LONDON - E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data - but the messages don't support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

The scientists were so convinced by their own science and so driven by a cause "that unless you're with them, you're against them," said Mark Frankel, director of scientific freedom, responsibility and law at the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He also reviewed the communications.

Frankel saw "no evidence of falsification or fabrication of data, although concerns could be raised about some instances of very 'generous interpretations.'"

Some e-mails expressed doubts about the quality of individual temperature records or why models and data didn't quite match. Part of this is the normal give-and-take of research, but skeptics challenged how reliable certain data was.

The e-mails were stolen from the computer network server of the climate research unit at the University of East Anglia in southeast England, an influential source of climate science, and were posted online last month. The university shut down the server and contacted the police.

The AP studied all the e-mails for context, with five reporters reading and rereading them - about 1 million words in total.

One of the most disturbing elements suggests an effort to avoid sharing scientific data with critics skeptical of global warming. It is not clear if any data was destroyed; two U.S. researchers denied it.

The e-mails show that several mainstream scientists repeatedly suggested keeping their research materials away from opponents who sought it under American and British public records law. It raises a science ethics question because free access to data is important so others can repeat experiments as part of the scientific method. The University of East Anglia is investigating the blocking of information requests.

"I believe none of us should submit to these 'requests,'" declared the university's Keith Briffa. The center's chief, Phil Jones, wrote: "Data is covered by all the agreements we sign with people, so I will be hiding behind them."

When one skeptic kept filing FOI requests, Jones, who didn't return AP requests for comment, told another scientist, Michael Mann: "You can delete this attachment if you want. Keep this quiet also, but this is the person who is putting FOI requests for all e-mails Keith (Briffa) and Tim (Osborn) have written."

Mann, a researcher at Penn State University, told The Associated Press: "I didn't delete any e-mails as Phil asked me to. I don't believe anybody else did."

The e-mails also show how professional attacks turned very personal. When former London financial trader Douglas J. Keenan combed through the data used in a 1990 research paper Jones had co-authored, Keenan claimed to have found evidence of fakery by Jones' co-author. Keenan threatened to have the FBI arrest University at Albany scientist Wei-Chyung Wang for fraud. (A university investigation later cleared him of any wrongdoing.)

"I do now wish I'd never sent them the data after their FOIA request!" Jones wrote in June 2007.

In another case after initially balking on releasing data to a skeptic because it was already public, Lawrence Livermore National Lab scientist Ben Santer wrote that he then opted to release everything the skeptic wanted - and more. Santer said in a telephone interview that he and others are inundated by frivolous requests from skeptics that are designed to "tie-up government-funded scientists."

The e-mails also showed a stunning disdain for global warming skeptics.

One scientist practically celebrates the news of the death of one critic, saying, "In an odd way this is cheering news!" Another bemoans that the only way to deal with skeptics is "continuing to publish quality work in quality journals (or calling in a Mafia hit.)" And a third scientist said the next time he sees a certain skeptic at a scientific meeting, "I'll be tempted to beat the crap out of him. Very tempted."

And they compared contrarians to communist-baiting Sen. Joseph McCarthy and Somali pirates. They also called them out-and-out frauds.

Santer, who received death threats after his work on climate change in 1996, said Thursday: "I'm not surprised that things are said in the heat of the moment between professional colleagues. These things are taken out of context."

When the journal, Climate Research, published a skeptical study, Penn State scientist Mann discussed retribution this way: "Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal."

That skeptical study turned out to be partly funded by the American Petroleum Institute.

The most provocative e-mails are usually about one aspect of climate science: research from a decade ago that studied how warm or cold it was centuries ago through analysis of tree rings, ice cores and glacial melt. And most of those e-mails, which stretch from 1996 to last month, are from about a handful of scientists in dozens of e-mails.

Still, such research has been a key element in measuring climate change over long periods.

As part of the AP review, summaries of the e-mails that raised issues from the potential manipulation of data to intensely personal attacks were sent to seven experts in research ethics, climate science and science policy.

"This is normal science politics, but on the extreme end, though still within bounds," said Dan Sarewitz, a science policy professor at Arizona State University. "We talk about science as this pure ideal and the scientific method as if it is something out of a cookbook, but research is a social and human activity full of all the failings of society and humans, and this reality gets totally magnified by the high political stakes here."

In the past three weeks since the e-mails were posted, longtime opponents of mainstream climate science have repeatedly quoted excerpts of about a dozen e-mails. Republican congressmen and former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin have called for either independent investigations, a delay in U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regulation of greenhouse gases or outright boycotts of the Copenhagen international climate talks. They cited a "culture of corruption" that the e-mails appeared to show.

That is not what the AP found. There were signs of trying to present the data as convincingly as possible.

One e-mail that skeptics have been citing often since the messages were posted online is from Jones. He says: "I've just completed Mike's (Mann) trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (from 1981 onward) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."

Jones was referring to tree ring data that indicated temperatures after the 1950s weren't as warm as scientists had determined.

The "trick" that Jones said he was borrowing from Mann was to add the real temperatures, not what the tree rings showed. And the decline he talked of hiding was not in real temperatures, but in the tree ring data which was misleading, Mann explained.

Sometimes the data didn't line up as perfectly as scientists wanted.

David Rind told colleagues about inconsistent figures in the work for a giant international report: "As this continuing exchange has clarified, what's in Chapter 6 is inconsistent with what is in Chapter 2 (and Chapter 9 is caught in the middle!). Worse yet, we've managed to make global warming go away! (Maybe it really is that easy...:)."

But in the end, global warming didn't go away, according to the vast body of research over the years.

None of the e-mails flagged by the AP and sent to three climate scientists viewed as moderates in the field changed their view that global warming is man-made and a threat. Nor did it alter their support of the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which some of the scientists helped write.

"My overall interpretation of the scientific basis for (man-made) global warming is unaltered by the contents of these e-mails," said Gabriel Vecchi, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration scientist.

Gerald North, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, headed a National Academy of Sciences study that looked at - and upheld as valid - Mann's earlier studies that found the 1990s were the hottest years in centuries.

"In my opinion the meaning is much more innocent than might be perceived by others taken out of context. Much of this is overblown," North said.

Mann contends he always has been upfront about uncertainties, pointing to the title of his 1999 study: "Northern Hemisphere Temperatures During the Past Millennium: Inferences, Uncertainties and Limitations."

Several scientists found themselves tailoring their figures or retooling their arguments to answer online arguments - even as they claimed not to care what was being posted to the Internet

"I don't read the blogs that regularly," Jonathan Overpeck of the University of Arizona wrote in 2005. "But I guess the skeptics are making hay of their (sic) being a global warm (sic) event around 1450AD."

One person singled out for criticism in the e-mails is Steve McIntyre, who maintains Climate Audit. The blog focuses on statistical issues with scientists' attempts to recreate the climate in ancient times.

"We find that the authors are overreaching in the conclusions that they're trying to draw from the data that they have," McIntyre said in a telephone interview.

McIntyre, 62, of Toronto, was trained in math and economics and says he is "substantially retired" from the mineral exploration industry, which produces greenhouse gases.

Some e-mails said McIntyre's attempts to get original data from scientists are frivolous and meant more for harassment than doing good science. There are allegations that he would distort and misuse data given to him.

McIntyre disagreed with how he is portrayed. "Everything that I've done in this, I've done in good faith," he said.

He also said he has avoided editorializing on the leaked e-mails. "Anything I say," he said, "is liable to be piling on."

The skeptics started the name-calling said Mann, who called McIntyre a "bozo," a "fraud" and a "moron" in various e-mails.

"We're human," Mann said. "We've been under attack unfairly by these people who have been attempting to dismiss us as frauds as liars."

The AP is mentioned several times in the e-mails, usually in reference to a published story. One scientist says his remarks were reported with "a bit of journalistic license" and "I would have rephrased or re-expressed some of what was written if I had seen it before it was released." The archive also includes a request from an AP reporter, one of the writers of this story, for reaction to a study, a standard step for journalists seeking quotes for their stories.




Zep

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Location: Funkytown


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 9:14am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 

A NASA satellite image of iceberg B17B (C), floating southwest off the West Australian coast. Australian authorities Friday issued a shipping alert over a gigantic iceberg that is gradually approaching the country's southwest coast. The Bureau of Meteorology said the once-in-a-century cliff of ice dislodged from Antarctica about a decade ago before drifting north

(AFP/Australian Antarctic Division/Ho)

I am sure this was caused by those conspiratorial emails!!{#Wink}

 
Wow, too bad someone can't go out and carry this thing back to Oz - it sure would provide a lot of fresh water.


sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 9:07am

 

A NASA satellite image of iceberg B17B (C), floating southwest off the West Australian coast. Australian authorities Friday issued a shipping alert over a gigantic iceberg that is gradually approaching the country's southwest coast. The Bureau of Meteorology said the once-in-a-century cliff of ice dislodged from Antarctica about a decade ago before drifting north

(AFP/Australian Antarctic Division/Ho)

I am sure this was caused by those conspiratorial emails!!{#Wink}


HazzeSwede

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Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 6:54am

Thank You !  {#Yes}   I am sure some people are on it !

miamizsun

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Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 6:49am

 HazzeSwede wrote:
    None,go ahead,but in the mean time,lets do something about the problems at hand, since we are 6-12 years 
     late anyway.

 
I can agree with your sense of urgency.

Let's make access to all of the data a Defcon 5 priority.

Get all of this out in the open and get this process started immediately.

No excuses, no foot dragging and complete transparency.

We deserve the truth.

Regards


HazzeSwede

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Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 6:29am

 miamizsun wrote:

Do you think that these issues may have an effect on the situation, before, during or after?

We're not talking seat belts here.

We're talking the largest tax scheme in the history of the planet and control of everything on earth that is energy related.

Involved in that control are the likes of the biggest and "slipperiest" criminals in the world.

In light of all of the manipulation and conflicting data, what are the objections to openly and objectively investigating all of the data, even if it took an extra 6-12 months?

Regards

     None,go ahead,but in the mean time,lets do something about the problems at hand, since we are 6-12 years 
     late anyway.


miamizsun

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Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 6:17am

 Inamorato wrote:

It is a Pascalian choice for climate change skeptics, although not for people who think global warming is real and in part human-caused such as me, Friedman, and the vast majority of scientists.

I will not attempt to address the specifics of implementation given the complexity of the subject and my limited time, except to say that it will require international agreement and national legislation. Sure, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth by industry which will say it is an unfair burden and anti-commerce as they always do. And as with the regulation of CFCs and the requirements for engines that burn unleaded gasoline and for mandatory seatbelts, industry will find a way to make money with it and society and the world will be better off for it.

As for corruption, theft, and incompetence, those are obviously all bad things but not ones with which I have a particular axe to grind.



 
Do you think that these issues may have an effect on the situation, before, during or after?

We're not talking seat belts here.

We're talking the largest tax scheme in the history of the planet and control of everything on earth that is energy related.

Involved in that control are the likes of the biggest and "slipperiest" criminals in the world.

In light of all of the manipulation and conflicting data, what are the objections to openly and objectively investigating all of the data, even if it took an extra 6-12 months?

Regards


Inamorato

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Location: Twin Cities
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 5:25am

 miamizsun wrote:

Sounds like Pascal's wager to me {#Wink}

I have no problem being more efficient, cleaning up the environment, etc.

I do have a problem with corruption and theft in the name of doing so.

If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation?

Wouldn't it make sense to make changes with the least amount of harm? (philosophically speaking)

Cut waste and redirect resources in a intelligent manner in line with the objective?

Of course you/we would.

Now what do we see happening?

And why would we choose to put incompetent people in charge?

Are we crazy? {#Stupid}

 

It is a Pascalian choice for climate change skeptics, although not for people who think global warming is real and in part human-caused such as me, Friedman, and the vast majority of scientists.

I will not attempt to address the specifics of implementation given the complexity of the subject and my limited time, except to say that it will require international agreement and national legislation. Sure, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth by industry which will say it is an unfair burden and anti-commerce as they always do. And as with the regulation of CFCs and the requirements for engines that burn unleaded gasoline and for mandatory seatbelts, industry will find a way to make money with it and society and the world will be better off for it.

As for corruption, theft, and incompetence, those are obviously all bad things but not ones with which I have a particular axe to grind.


miamizsun

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Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 6:14pm

It is officially a (tax) scam.....

Soros's Climate Plan

Financier Proposes Use of IMF Currency to Pay for Emissions Reduction
By ALESSANDRO TORELLO

COPENHAGEN — Financier George Soros proposed that rich nations tap into special currency reserves issued by the International Monetary Fund to finance efforts by poor countries to combat climate change.

Mr. Soros suggested that rich nations finance climate subsidies for developing nations by tapping into some of the $283 billion in special drawing rights that the IMF issued to respond to the global financial crisis earlier this year. More than $150 billion of those rights went to the 15 biggest developed economies, he said. Special drawing rights, or SDRs, are a form of composite currency issued by the IMF to its members.

 

And you've also got those boyscouts over at Goldman Sachs running the carbon credit derivatives trading scheme too. (Banned my ass)

A boost to carbon trading may come from the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 (Waxman-Markey bill) would take effect 2012, and was recently passed by the House. The bill would limit, or "cap," the amount of carbon emissions that companies can produce each year.

They are also setting up the CME Green Exchange, which is a separate entity, designed as a partnership with major financial institutions. Their partners include Morgan Stanley (MS), Credit Suisse (CS), Goldman Sachs (GS), JPMorgan (JPM), Merrill Lynch (BAC), and Constellation Energy (CEG). They would be trading the same environmental contracts and awaiting CFTC approval.

Matt Taibbi nailed it in RS this year: "the first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it is everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."

musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:46pm

 hippiechick wrote:

Why do we let fools affect policy???
 

hc,
Seasonal salutations,
Not to start anything, but that question about fools is now being flipped on its head.
First class of BI101, you learn the scientific method, a method from which widely accepted good, solid fundamentals of a scientific endeavour, flow That first class lesson is done for many reasons, notably or perhaps chiefly, so that your work, whether in school or in a research facility, is from a methodology stand, unassailable. From the emails that caused a global maelstrom, it is obvious that not only was the scientific method not followed, but the singular greatest NO NO by anyone in the sciences, that of pushing/touting/publishing fradulent/doctored/manipulated/hidden data, became the MO for some in the climate game.
It is most telling that many zealots of the Religion of Climate attack the revelation of the emails. Again, attempting to fudge realities. The reality is not found in the sudden knowledge of such emails and the sinister plots and twists behind them, but that any group of scientists would conspire on such a scale with a topic of such prominence. And that conspiracy appears to be? Fraud/deceit/threats. Doesn't that make this group and perhaps others who might have engaged in the same absolutely forbidden methods they employed, fools?
And to your statement about fools: sounds like the approach favored by many on the matter of the global climate: the deal is sold, case dismissed. There will be and never should have been, free and unbridled dissent so say some zealots. And now we understandy why. A free discussion with a completely open sharing of data would have revealed what took place in the darkest days ever for science. The folks who have so smeared the world of good science, came up just short of suggesting snuffing out dissenters. Guess we can be thankful in this Holiday Season that they only desired their tongues be held and free speech be damned.
mk
Welly

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Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:19pm

 hippiechick wrote:

Why do we let fools affect policy???
 
Cause everyone gets to have a say?


hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:19pm

 Welly wrote:


 
Why do we let fools affect policy???

Welly

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Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:17pm


MrsHobieJoe

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Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 12:26pm

 miamizsun wrote:

I agree.

How can we get the corrupt immoral politicians uninvolved?

(unfortunately, when there's money, power, control, nebulous plans and unaccountability, bad guys show up)
 

A certain amount of corruption is inevitable- actually if you look at the global government corruption table generally speaking many of those high up the table are also very keen to move ahead with Copenhagen.  As to the plans for Copenhagen- it's not how I would do it either but it is better than nothing and it is a step on the road to changing the way we do things.

I should probably explain that I'm a pragmatic rather than an idealistic person.


miamizsun

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Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
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Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 12:18pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


The problem I have is that is it playing as a domestic political event in the USA.  It's not- this is a worldwide negotiation.  It's not just about your bloody government.

 
I agree.

How can we get the corrupt immoral politicians uninvolved?

(unfortunately, when there's money, power, control, nebulous plans and unaccountability, bad guys show up)

MrsHobieJoe

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Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 12:06pm

 miamizsun wrote:

Sounds like Pascal's wager to me {#Wink}

I have no problem being more efficient, cleaning up the environment, etc.

I do have a problem with corruption and theft in the name of doing so.

If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation?

Wouldn't it make sense to make changes with the least amount of harm? (philosophically speaking)

Cut waste and redirect resources in a intelligent manner in line with the objective?

Of course you/we would.

Now what do we see happening?

And why would we choose to put incompetent people in charge?

Are we crazy? {#Stupid}

 

The problem I have is that is it playing as a domestic political event in the USA.  It's not- this is a worldwide negotiation.  It's not just about your bloody government.
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