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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 35, 36, 37  Next
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westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 5:05pm

These Afghani refugees are special category refugees/immigrants.   They deserve special consideration and special support.  

People at the bottom, especially at the 'sharp end of the stick', should never be punished for dubious policy decisions taken at the top.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 4:52pm

I would expect private sponsorship to lead to better rates of integration into local communities and broader American society.  
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 3:26pm

This is remarkably like this Niskanen Center proposal from a few months ago, which is a return to the process that brought my grandparents-in-law to the US after WW2.

The Government Has Struggled To Resettle Evacuated Afghans. A New Program Will Let Private Citizens Pick Up the Slack.

With tens of thousands of Afghans awaiting assistance, the initiative will capitalize on local knowledge and turn resettlement into a bottom-up process.
On Monday, the U.S. State Department announced that it would launch a private sponsorship program for evacuated Afghans.

Under the Sponsor Circle Program, private citizens will be able to help financially support and resettle evacuated Afghans in new communities across the country. Groups of at least five adults may apply to become sponsors. If they pass background checks, they then commit to raising enough money to support the designated family for up to 90 days. Once approved, groups are responsible for helping Afghans find housing, enroll in schools, and identify medical services.


black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 2:28pm



WASHINGTON—The Biden administration is in talks to offer immigrant families that were separated during the Trump administration around $450,000 a person in compensation, according to people familiar with the matter, as several agencies work to resolve lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who say the government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma.

The U.S. Departments of Justice, Homeland Security, and Health and Human Services are considering payments that could amount to close to $1 million a family, though the final numbers could shift, the people familiar with the matter said. Most of the families that crossed the border illegally from Mexico to seek asylum in the U.S. included one parent and one child, the people said. Many families would likely get smaller payouts, depending on their circumstances, the people said.

The American Civil Liberties Union, which represents families in one of the lawsuits, has identified about 5,500 children separated at the border over the course of the Trump administration, citing figures provided to it by the government. The number of families eligible under the potential settlement is expected to be smaller, the people said, as government officials aren’t sure how many will come forward. Around 940 claims have so far been filed by the families, the people said.

The total potential payout could be $1 billion or more.

As part of a so-called zero-tolerance enforcement policy, immigration agents separated thousands of children, ranging from infants to teenagers, from their parents at the southern border in 2018 after they had crossed illegally from Mexico to seek asylum in the U.S. In some cases families were forcefully broken up with no provisions to track and later reunite them, government investigations found. The lawsuits allege some of the children suffered from a range of ailments, including heat exhaustion and malnutrition, and were kept in freezing cold rooms and provided little medical attention.




islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 4, 2021 - 6:43am

 kurtster wrote:


I've seen that article before. Yeah, so what ?

You laid out policies which I said that I agree with in principal and then I ask you how would you administer it and this is the response I get.

If you refuse to have a line, then just how do you administer it ? Use the honor system ? Let the people tell you who and what they are and we simply believe them and let them go their merry way ?

I totally disagree with any assessment that says we have excess resources. Explain all the homeless and starving people we have living on the streets for openers.

Explain where all the money to pay for these new arrivals is coming from.

Back to you, Ahab.



So you've seen the article, but apparently didn't read or understand it.  We don't have a line, and really, we don't need one. We just need to let people in and assist them a bit on the productivity / getting established bit.  And yes, the honor system. It turns out that people who really want to come here (either escaping violence, or seeking opportunity), to the point they will take extreme risk to get here, are willing to participate. Give them an opportunity and a pathway (a line if you will) and they will go on their merry way and we'll all be better for it. 

Homelessness is a different issue. And we spend billions on that one, so apparently we have plenty of money for ineffective policy there.  That you don't agree that we have resources doesn't mean much. Look around, we have a severe labor shortage in several areas. 

Besides, all these people are just practicing civil disobedience. They are trying to help you with your argument that the immigration system needs reform. Their act of entering the country is simply designed to bring attention to the problem. And it is working - there is nightly coverage on the news. Much more effective than those people trying to smoke their way to marijuana reform.  You really should be thanking them for their service. 
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Oct 3, 2021 - 12:25pm

Invading invaders are causing an invasion!!!1!
Newsmax host warns the suburbs are being “invaded” by undocumented migrants
Grant Stinchfield: “It is an invasion of poverty – low-skilled, uneducated future Democrat voters”
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 2, 2021 - 7:50am

 islander wrote:
 kurtster wrote:


I basically agree in principal. I also believe that there already are laws on the books that pretty much mirror these thoughts.

They are not being enforced. Therein lies the problem.

These situations you list require people getting into line to go through the process that resolves these situations and grants a proper legal status.

Where does this line start ? At our front door or sneaking in through the holes in the wall ? Or as more recently kicking in our front door and waltzing in and having a grand old time on someone else's dime. And where is the front door and what does it look like ?

You mentioned space. That we have a tremendous amount of space. This is true. You also mention that dwindling resources should become a mitigating circumstance that says even though we have the space, we do not have the capacity to properly service it anymore. Therefore we must limit its use.

What do you say to those who think that we have already reached that point ? That we no longer have enough resources for the people already here ?



I know you've been told this many times before, but since you so conveniently forget, there is no linehttps://reason.com/2019/12/18/...

Also, see Richard's link below, there is no resource limit that we are anywhere near.   So to people who would say such things I say "bullshit, what is it that you are really afraid of?"

 
I've seen that article before.  Yeah, so what ?  

You laid out policies which I said that I agree with in principal and then I ask you how would you administer it and this is the response I get.

If you refuse to have a line, then just how do you administer it ?  Use the honor system ?  Let the people tell you who and what they are and we simply believe them and let them go their merry way ?

I totally disagree with any assessment that says we have excess resources.  Explain all the homeless and starving people we have living on the streets for openers.

Explain where all the money to pay for these new arrivals is coming from.

Back to you, Ahab.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Oct 1, 2021 - 2:19pm

 steeler wrote:
Reason:  There are no flying monkeys from Oz. Regardless, the government should not be restricting their flight paths nor prohibiting citizens from protecting themselves by shooting them down, which would be their natural right, assuming, for the sake of argument, as we must, that they do exist and have infiltrated our collective air space. Although we take no position on whether it is raining, it is incumbent upon us and all those who cherish freedom to unequivocally state that it is an inviolable individual right to not come in out of the rain.

You beat me to it.

Also, Lazy's metaphor should have been turned into a video. Presented in his bathrobe. On YouTube.


Breitbart: We have exclusive documents that prove the flying monkeys were made in China.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Oct 1, 2021 - 2:16pm

 Lazy8 wrote:

I kind of meta-replied to this, but it seemed to merit a more direct response. Except that obviously wouldn't help, so I thought I'd try a metaphorical approach. It's an experiment. Just bear with me.

Meteorologist: It's raining, and looks like it will be for some time.

Fox News: It's not raining, there is a plague of flying monkeys.

CNN: Meteorologist predicts biblical flooding!

Fox News commentator: Ha, CNN doesn't even believe in the bible, or Noah, so now they're saying Noah's flood is coming. Fake news! It's totally flying monkeys.

Meteorologist: Um, look outside. It's totally raining.

US Weather Bureau: Sometimes it rains. Look, I have charts. This may be rain but we need more data.

New York Times: Ignorant rubes deny existence of rain, threaten to make biblical flooding worse. Also climate change.

CNN: New York Times reports ignorant rubes deny existence of rain. Also climate change.

PBS: Climate change. Totally. And here's a preacher from Harlem with a colorful metaphor about Noah.

Fox News: Tonight: an interview with former TV weatherman who totally saw monkeys fly by. Also: it's not raining because look, I'm dry.

Former TV weatherman: It's monkeys. From Oz.

Fox News: Called it! Flying monkeys. From Oz.

Meteorologist: Um...Oz is fictional, monkeys can't fly, and it's raining. I'm just saying you ought to roll up your car windows.

US Weather Bureau: Right, windows. Good idea. We're looking into it. Here's a chart.

Fox News: Emerging fascist dictatorship demands we seal ourselves inside airtight cars and suffocate to protect our upholstery from imaginary rain! And no thought at all for securing the borders from flying monkeys.

CNN: Armed ignorant rubes patrolling border to shoot down flying monkeys getting wet in the rain because climate change.

PBS: Climate change. Also: the hidden danger of falling flying monkeys when shot down!

Also PBS: Did we say falling flying monkeys? We meant climate change.

Fox News: What is the Biden administration doing to secure the border with Oz?

New York Times: Here's an anecdote about an ignorant rube that shot his mother in the mistaken belief she was a flying monkey that we'll later retract because we made the whole thing up, but which will nevertheless become a permanent part of our folklore.

Meteorologist: There is no border with Oz because OZ IS FICTIONAL! Also all the cars are getting soaked.

New York Times: Here's a tutorial about how to roll up your windows, behind a paywall. Also one of the Cuomos orders cars be made without windows.

Former TV weatherman: I've developed this spray that repels monkeys.

CNN: The governor of California, seen here riding in a convertible with the top down, has heroically issued an order requiring that all the windows in the state be boarded up, including car windshields.

PBS: Here's a thoughtful piece, based on a tweet from a from an English professor at a junior college, alarming us about a trend there is no evidence for of fear of flying monkeys creating a backlash against witches from Oz.

Fox News: Why is monkey repellent spray being suppressed?

CNN: Climate change.

US Weather Bureau: It's definitely raining. Also flying monkeys are an endangered species. I'll have a chart on that soon.

New York Times: He meant climate change. Also racism.




Reason:  There are no flying monkeys from Oz. Regardless, the government should not be restricting their flight paths nor prohibiting citizens from protecting themselves by shooting the flying monkeys down, which would be their natural right, assuming, for the sake of argument, as we must, that these flying monkeys do exist and have infiltrated our collective air space. Although we take no position on whether it is raining, it is incumbent upon us and all those who cherish freedom to unequivocally state that it is an inviolable individual right to not come in out of the rain.



haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 1, 2021 - 1:55pm

 kurtster wrote:


I basically agree in principal. I also believe that there already are laws on the books that pretty much mirror these thoughts.

They are not being enforced. Therein lies the problem.

I would maybe believe you if you hadn't been so willing to embrace all of trumps policies that restricted legal immigration and refugee pathways. Cut legal means down to almost nothing and pat yourself on the back that you favour legal immigration.

In terms of enforcement I look at it like road speed limits. The government can't stop people from speeding but the laws keep dangerous driving down to a manageable level.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 1, 2021 - 1:36pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
I would argue that for the first time we actually have open borders, this isn't even about immigration reform at this point it is about simply securing our borders. You should be happy, you have won. We have open borders.

I kind of meta-replied to this, but it seemed to merit a more direct response. Except that obviously wouldn't help, so I thought I'd try a metaphorical approach. It's an experiment. Just bear with me.

Meteorologist: It's raining, and looks like it will be for some time.

Fox News: It's not raining, there is a plague of flying monkeys.

CNN: Meteorologist predicts biblical flooding!

Fox News commentator: Ha, CNN doesn't even believe in the bible, or Noah, so now they're saying Noah's flood is coming. Fake news! It's totally flying monkeys.

Meteorologist: Um, look outside. It's totally raining.

US Weather Bureau: Sometimes it rains. Look, I have charts. This may be rain but we need more data.

New York Times: Ignorant rubes deny existence of rain, threaten to make biblical flooding worse. Also climate change.

CNN: New York Times reports ignorant rubes deny existence of rain. Also climate change.

PBS: Climate change. Totally. And here's a preacher from Harlem with a colorful metaphor about Noah.

Fox News: Tonight: an interview with former TV weatherman who totally saw monkeys fly by. Also: it's not raining because look, I'm dry.

Former TV weatherman: It's monkeys. From Oz.

Fox News: Called it! Flying monkeys. From Oz.

Meteorologist: Um...Oz is fictional, monkeys can't fly, and it's raining. I'm just saying you ought to roll up your car windows.

US Weather Bureau: Right, windows. Good idea. We're looking into it. Here's a chart.

Fox News: Emerging fascist dictatorship demands we seal ourselves inside airtight cars and suffocate to protect our upholstery from imaginary rain! And no thought at all for securing the borders from flying monkeys.

CNN: Armed ignorant rubes patrolling border to shoot down flying monkeys getting wet in the rain because climate change.

PBS: Climate change. Also: the hidden danger of falling flying monkeys when shot down!

Also PBS: Did we say falling flying monkeys? We meant climate change.

Fox News: What is the Biden administration doing to secure the border with Oz?

New York Times: Here's an anecdote about an ignorant rube that shot his mother in the mistaken belief she was a flying monkey that we'll later retract because we made the whole thing up, but which will nevertheless become a permanent part of our folklore.

Meteorologist: There is no border with Oz because OZ IS FICTIONAL! Also all the cars are getting soaked.

New York Times: Here's a tutorial about how to roll up your windows, behind a paywall. Also one of the Cuomos orders cars be made without windows.

Former TV weatherman: I've developed this spray that repels monkeys.

CNN: The governor of California, seen here riding in a convertible with the top down, has heroically issued an order requiring that all the windows in the state be boarded up, including car windshields.

PBS: Here's a thoughtful piece, based on a tweet from a from an English professor at a junior college, alarming us about a trend there is no evidence for of fear of flying monkeys creating a backlash against witches from Oz.

Fox News: Why is monkey repellent spray being suppressed?

CNN: Climate change.

US Weather Bureau: It's definitely raining. Also flying monkeys are an endangered species. I'll have a chart on that soon.

New York Times: He meant climate change. Also racism.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 9:32pm

 kurtster wrote:


I basically agree in principal. I also believe that there already are laws on the books that pretty much mirror these thoughts.

They are not being enforced. Therein lies the problem.

These situations you list require people getting into line to go through the process that resolves these situations and grants a proper legal status.

Where does this line start ? At our front door or sneaking in through the holes in the wall ? Or as more recently kicking in our front door and waltzing in and having a grand old time on someone else's dime. And where is the front door and what does it look like ?

You mentioned space. That we have a tremendous amount of space. This is true. You also mention that dwindling resources should become a mitigating circumstance that says even though we have the space, we do not have the capacity to properly service it anymore. Therefore we must limit its use.

What do you say to those who think that we have already reached that point ? That we no longer have enough resources for the people already here ?



I know you've been told this many times before, but since you so conveniently forget, there is no line: https://reason.com/2019/12/18/...

Also, see Richard's link below, there is no resource limit that we are anywhere near.   So to people who would say such things I say "bullshit, what is it that you are really afraid of?"

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 9:16pm

 islander wrote:
Well a comprehensive immigration policy is way too much for a forum post. But here's a few thoughts:
1. We need a couple classes of immigration based on circumstances.  
1a- People fleeing violence/oppression pretty much get in. They would need relatives to support them, and/or would have to enter a peace corps styled program to get training or alignment with existing skills for job opportunities. They would be eligible for benefits and full citizenship after a short period of time and some formal process. 
1b - People looking to voluntarily relocate would have to apply, but would pretty much get in with a program similar to the 1a system. If you could prove you had sufficient resources you could skip the peace corps bit, but your benefits would be restricted (this is how a lot of the world approaches the problem). There would be some pretty limited restrictions if they wanted to go into a field that was already saturated with workers, but this would be pretty rare.

 2. Policies should be aligned with letting productive people in. People seeking opportunities who have resources (family support systems, fat bank accounts, big brains and corporate backers) get in because they are going to help us grow. 

3. We should also have a big opening for humanitarian support. We are good people and we can do this. We already throw away a lot of money to corrupt governments under this auspice, but it mostly gets wasted. We can waste that money just fine here with our own corrupt government and probably have a better result. 

So yes, merit. But also humanitarian. I just think we disagree on what constitutes merit. I don't think heritage/lineage has anything to do with it.
 
I basically agree in principal.  I also believe that there already are laws on the books that pretty much mirror these thoughts.

They are not being enforced.  Therein lies the problem.

These situations you list require people getting into line to go through the process that resolves these situations and grants a proper legal status. 

Where does this line start ?  At our front door or sneaking in through the holes in the wall ?  Or as more recently kicking in our front door and waltzing in and having a grand old time on someone else's dime.  And where is the front door and what does it look like ?

You mentioned space. That we have a tremendous amount of space.  This is true.  You also mention that dwindling resources should become a mitigating circumstance that says even though we have the space, we do not have the capacity to properly service it anymore.  Therefore we must limit its use.

What do you say to those who think that we have already reached that point ?  That we no longer have enough resources for the people already here ?

And curiously, I see no mention of a guest worker program.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 2:26pm

U.S. Net Migration Rate 1950-2021
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 12:56pm

 black321 wrote:
those Haitians would beg to differ.

As would anyone paying attention.

Or applying for a visa. Or ever having anything to do with the immigration process.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 11:41am

 black321 wrote:

Are their limits here (asking for a friend)?
The counter argument you often hear is, this drain will only exasperate conditions in home countries. Isn't that bad? I suppose after a certain # leave, jobs should become plentiful at home, and things shift back to an equilibrium...unless the home state is completely eroded/corrupt?
I like to think I'm for no particular limits or restrictions, but it's complex.
Guess I will stick with my day job. 


Not really any limits as long as we have space. Sure some cities have a lot of people and many old timers complaining about it. But as long as we have unrestricted movement and other places to go, I don't see a problem there. Maybe in a few decades if we get lower on resources. 

As noted, this is probably bigger than a few guys on a music forum, but that's the direction I'd go. 


haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 10:14am

Speaking of immigrants as a revenue source, my current favourite acronym is MM2H for Malaysia My 2nd Home. I like the idea of allowing people into the country if they pay a "membership fee". 
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 8:50am

 sirdroseph wrote:


those Haitians would beg to differ.

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 8:47am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:

Obama now calls open-borders immigration policy ‘unsustainable’ as Biden’s ‘heartbreaking’ migrant crisis worsens

 
 
"Immigration is tough. It always has been because, on the one hand, I think we are naturally a people that wants to help others. And we see tragedy and hardship and families that are desperately trying to get here so that their kids are safe, and they're in some cases fleeing violence or catastrophe," Obama said. "At the same time, we're a nation state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable."

This is a familiar pattern: any call for immigration reform is denounced as "open borders" and that shuts down the debate, like crying "racism!" It's what you do when you don't have an answer. Obama isn't arguing with Joe Biden in that clip, he's arguing with people like me—who actually advocate for open borders. Both he and Biden acquiesced to the demands of the border security complex, a set of rogue agencies within the government that have grown so powerful they transcend the executive and legislative branches. Obama wasn't known as the Deporter In Chief for nothin', and Biden is hot on his heels. So the headline is dishonest, as this debate usually is. And as long as the debate stays dishonest we will continue arguing about fake issues while the real one festers.
 
I would argue that for the first time we actually have open borders, this isn't even about immigration reform at this point it is about simply securing our borders.  You should be happy, you have won.  We have open borders.{#Cheers}
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 8:29am

 islander wrote:

3. We should also have a big opening for humanitarian support. We are good people and we can do this. We already throw away a lot of money to corrupt governments under this auspice, but it mostly gets wasted. We can waste that money just fine here with our own corrupt government and probably have a better result. 



Are their limits here (asking for a friend)?
The counter argument you often hear is, this drain will only exasperate conditions in home countries. Isn't that bad? I suppose after a certain # leave, jobs should become plentiful at home, and things shift back to an equilibrium...unless the home state is completely eroded/corrupt?
I like to think I'm for no particular limits or restrictions, but it's complex.
Guess I will stick with my day job. 

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