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NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 16, 2021 - 1:17pm

 Lazy8 wrote:

Took a break from arguing over the internet for the weekend (which went splendidly, thank you, other than some bad news about being able to start dancing next month) and it seems a longer response to this went away. I'll try and flesh out what I was looking for a bit.

The first rule of credibility: If you want to be believed, don't lie.

Governments at all levels in many countries have squandered any credibility they ever had by lying, dissembling, and in ways large and small failing to trust their populations with the truth. One of the drivers of high vaccination rates around the world (distribution problems aside) is that people who trust what their governments are saying have generally trusted the vaccines. This goes beyond ideology or politics; if the prime minister (or whoever) gets in front of the populace and says "This is important, and we need you to roll up your sleeves and help out" and people don't have ample reason to think s/he's lying they will likely cooperate.

While the time to build credibility is before you need it the pandemic was an opportunity to build it. An opportunity squandered. And it will make the next emergency harder to deal with and the next disease outbreak deadlier.


Yeah I had to take a chill pill and some time out. 

It is worth noting the different performances of various nations to the pandemic and seeing the strong correlation between those countries that still have some semblance of faith in government and those where distrust has taken root. Seems having a government you can trust is great for vaccine uptake.

But I made the mistake of thinking this was a question of form (of government) but actually it is a question of culture, as you point out. 

You are quite right, the issue is credibility but this cuts both ways. Governments have to earn it and it doesn't even necessarily have to be performance driven. Clear communication seems to suffice as Jacinda Adern has shown. But "we the people" are also instrumental in the government we get. What compromises are we willing to accept, where are our redlines, what sort of society do we want, and so on. You can't govern a rabble that is neither willing to listen nor to reason and negotiate.

And it has become abundantly clear over the past decade that there are various forces out there actively playing public opinion to further their own agenda (nothing new in itself, but the scale and form has changed). There are those sowing distrust in government. Those inciting racist tension. Those fostering animosity towards refugees and immigrants. None of this is new nor is it a left-wing / right-wing thing. Putin has aimed considerable resources at misinformation for what seem to be purely geopolitical reasons. What's amazing is how effective he's been. But there are many others. Powerful lobbies and global industries who would like to break down local regulations to tap into new markets, for example. The list goes on. Getting any kind of clarity amidst all these smoke screens is getting harder by the day.

But removing government and regulation is not going to resolve this. It will only make it worse as the signal to noise ratio continues to wane. Then people will be even more lost and disoriented and scared about who to trust and therefore even more vulnerable to snake oil salesmen.

You and I will probably disagree to our dying day on the reasons for poor government. You see it as structural: government as a monopoly, with the lack of accountability fostering poor decisions or downright nepotism. I see it more as a cultural/historical contingency. The quality of government rises and falls like the tide. Things may change, governments come and go, but in the end, you get the government you deserve.






Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 16, 2021 - 9:22am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?

Took a break from arguing over the internet for the weekend (which went splendidly, thank you, other than some bad news about being able to start dancing next month) and it seems a longer response to this went away. I'll try and flesh out what I was looking for a bit.

The first rule of credibility: If you want to be believed, don't lie.

Governments at all levels in many countries have squandered any credibility they ever had by lying, dissembling, and in ways large and small failing to trust their populations with the truth. One of the drivers of high vaccination rates around the world (distribution problems aside) is that people who trust what their governments are saying have generally trusted the vaccines. This goes beyond ideology or politics; if the prime minister (or whoever) gets in front of the populace and says "This is important, and we need you to roll up your sleeves and help out" and people don't have ample reason to think s/he's lying they will likely cooperate.

While the time to build credibility is before you need it the pandemic was an opportunity to build it. An opportunity squandered. And it will make the next emergency harder to deal with and the next disease outbreak deadlier.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 5:59am

 sirdroseph wrote:

B I N G O and bingo was his nameo.

I also include how my actions may impact others in the cost-benefit analysis. 



sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 5:05am

 steeler wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:

I am concerned about both, they are not mutually exclusive.

Never said they were. It is a cost-benefit analysis.
 
B I N G O and bingo was his nameo.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 7:21am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

oh grief, looks like I really got up people's noses with my accusation of needing a teddy and a hot chocolate. 

{#Lol}


Maybe I'll just shout us all a round of hot chocolate... 
 


well that was directed out into the universe 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 7:16am

 miamizsun wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?
 


real dialogue? 
the problem with engaging people and honestly addressing concerns is that it will likely lead to an amiable solution
in the early stages that could be very uncomfortable or challenging for those locked into foolish political narratives
initial conversations should be open, non-threatening and tolerant of all beliefs
build a little trust, good will and work forward from there? a recipe for success?
i'll engage almost anyone as long as hey are sincere and civil
obviously hateful speech, grave dancing, finger pointing and insults are not going to get us the desired outcome
unfortunately there are a lot of folks that buy into that dogma
the results are on display, yet people may not understand why they're not effective
i think if you're persistent you will be doing the world a great service
good luck
 
oh grief, looks like I really got up people's noses with my accusation of needing a teddy and a hot chocolate. 

{#Lol}

Maybe I'll just shout us all a round of hot chocolate... 
 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 6:29am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?
 


real dialogue? 
the problem with engaging people and honestly addressing concerns is that it will likely lead to an amiable solution
in the early stages that could be very uncomfortable or challenging for those locked into foolish political narratives
initial conversations should be open, non-threatening and tolerant of all beliefs
build a little trust, good will and work forward from there? a recipe for success?
i'll engage almost anyone as long as hey are sincere and civil
obviously hateful speech, grave dancing, finger pointing and insults are not going to get us the desired outcome
unfortunately there are a lot of folks that buy into that dogma
the results are on display, yet people may not understand why they're not effective
i think if you're persistent you will be doing the world a great service
good luck

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 5:32am

 sirdroseph wrote:

I am concerned about both, they are not mutually exclusive.

Never said they were. It is a cost-benefit analysis.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 5:26am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
When A meets B, when the scared and rootless start eroding that general consensus in an attempt to remedy their fears by destroying the very thing holding things together I get kind of angry. edit: and, yes, scared for our future.

I'm gonna repeat my question: What else you got? The fear that civilization is hanging by a thread, btw, is more than a little hyperbolic—but let's say your breathless take is accurate. Shouldn't that motivate you all the more? If it's important enough to make you wring your hands why isn't it important enough for you to try a more persuasive approach?
 
reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?
 
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 4:08am

 steeler wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:

And this does not concern you?  Seems to me the virus itself and its journey is the more deciding factor and that will reveal itself much sooner.

It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated —  not to be proven wrong about that choice.  I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical.  I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.
 
I am concerned about both, they are not mutually exclusive.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 8:26pm

The government distrust chickens have come home to roost...

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 4:46pm

 black321 wrote:


sure, i think this a bit of a communication breakdown:
Dont want to speak for him, but... i didnt get the sense Sir was trying to push no vaxx...but rather highlight some of the potential l-t risks of a mrna vaccine.
Suggest you watch the Weinstein video from the covid thread for perspective.

Hmmm . . . I am thinking When The Levee Breaks:

Going down, going down now.
Going down. I'm going down now
Going down, going down
Going down, going down
Oh
Going down, going down now
Going down, going down now
Going down, going down now
Going down, going, dow- dow- dow- dow- down now
ooh, ooh

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 2:47pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
When A meets B, when the scared and rootless start eroding that general consensus in an attempt to remedy their fears by destroying the very thing holding things together I get kind of angry.

edit: and, yes, scared for our future.

I'm gonna repeat my question: What else you got?

The fear that civilization is hanging by a thread, btw, is more than a little hyperbolic—but let's say your breathless take is accurate. Shouldn't that motivate you all the more? If it's important enough to make you wring your hands why isn't it important enough for you to try a more persuasive approach?
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 12:23pm

 steeler wrote:





The context: I had first asked SirD whether he could be persuaded to get vaccinated and, if so, what might persuade him. He responded by saying that he was choosing to stand by. I wondered how long he would wait to make a determination as it might be years before adverse side effects of the vaccine might surface. He responded by wondering why I was not concerned about that. As reflected in my response that you have bolded, SirD’s responses indicate to me that he has made up his mind and believes the passage of time will validate his choice. In sum, I do not think there is anything that would persuade him to get vaccinated, given his current circumstances and beliefs. So, I believe I have the answers to the questions I posed.

I also acknowledged that his circumstances were rather unique in terms of the degree of isolation he and his wife can and do exercise. He did say that he does make infrequent visits to grocery stores and other such stops. I guess I wonder why he seemingly is trying to convince others that eschewing vaccination is the better choice  when he has to know that the circumstances of the lives of the vast majority differ from his. As you say, above, most do not have that option, at least not to that degree. And, as noenz has said, the vast majority do not want to live that way.






sure, i think this a bit of a communication breakdown:
Dont want to speak for him, but... i didnt get the sense Sir was trying to push no vaxx...but rather highlight some of the potential l-t risks of a mrna vaccine.
Suggest you watch the Weinstein video from the covid thread for perspective.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 12:02pm

 black321 wrote:

What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others.
It seems the more prudent step, for him.
The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot. 










The context: I had first asked SirD whether he could be persuaded to get vaccinated and, if so, what might persuade him. He responded by saying that he was choosing to stand by. I wondered how long he would wait to make a determination as it might be years before adverse side effects of the vaccine might surface. He responded by wondering why I was not concerned about that. As reflected in my response that you have bolded, SirD’s responses indicate to me that he has made up his mind and believes the passage of time will validate his choice. In sum, I do not think there is anything that would persuade him to get vaccinated, given his current circumstances and beliefs. So, I believe I have the answers to the questions I posed.

I also acknowledged that his circumstances were rather unique in terms of the degree of isolation he and his wife can and do exercise. He did say that he does make infrequent visits to grocery stores and other such stops. I guess I wonder why he seemingly is trying to convince others that eschewing vaccination is the better choice  when he has to know that the circumstances of the lives of the vast majority differ from his. As you say, above, most do not have that option, at least not to that degree. And, as noenz has said, the vast majority do not want to live that way.




NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 10:33am

 black321 wrote:

What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others.
It seems the more prudent step, for him.
The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot. 



nothing in my book. He has chosen isolation and is happy living by it. Fine by me.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 10:23am

 black321 wrote:

What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others.
It seems the more prudent step, for him.
The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot. 



h3ll, i've been vaccinated twice, two different vaccines
AZ late last year in a random control trial, which didn't receive  emergency use authorization 
so my alternative was pfizer (jabbed early and late may))
of course i'm around a lot of people, old people
i say that as someone hatched in 60

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 10:12am

 steeler wrote:

It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated —  not to be proven wrong about that choice. 

I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical.  I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.


What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others.
It seems the more prudent step, for him.
The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot. 

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 7:06am

 steeler wrote:

It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated —  not to be proven wrong about that choice. 

I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical.  I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.



That's the way I see it too. On an individual level, there are basically two choices: 
1. get vaccinated and avoid a real and imminent threat of severe illness (as well as help get the R number below 1 and stymie the spread) 
OR
2. not get vaccinated to avoid a potential but unlikely threat of something unforeseen in the distant future (when I could well be dead or demented anyway) which entails accepting the risk of getting severely ill in the near future from the very real pandemic surrounding us.

From a social perspective, there's basically no argument. Get vaccinated or isolate.



steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 6:18am

 sirdroseph wrote:

And this does not concern you?  Seems to me the virus itself and its journey is the more deciding factor and that will reveal itself much sooner.

It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated —  not to be proven wrong about that choice. 

I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical.  I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.

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