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Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2021 - 2:06pm

A Series of Photographs of Downtown Belleville, Ontario in 1975



NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2021 - 1:17pm

 westslope wrote:

Yeah....   I am worried that many will jump to the worst conclusions without any details of these unmarked grave sites.   These discoveries could reinforce an ideology of victimization that could later hamper growth to more autonomy and security.

I worry that the flood gates of public transfers to FN communities will open up even further in an indiscriminate fashion.

I feel very, very sorry for elderly FNs here in BC that are believing, practising, deeply religious Catholics.  I feel awful for the honourable priests, nuns and lay Catholics who have sacrificed so much to help others.   

I personally believe that it is critical to recognize the positive contributions made by the residential schools.  Many university-trained chiefs attended residential schools.   

It is also vital to understand the alternatives at the time.  There were none.   Whether intended or not, educated political elites in FN communities appear to do a much better job of defending and promoting their interests than uneducated political elites in FN communities or anywhere else for that matter.

As for the domestic abuse and violence that still plagues some FN communities, the more jobs, the better.   In that direction, many FN communities are making huge strides as workers, contractors and entrepreneurs.    This is happening in part thanks to the residential schools.   In part thanks to affirmative action hiring programs that have been adopted both by government and many private companies, in particular resource companies.  

It may be hard to recognize it at the moment but the status and rights of First Nations have been steadily improving in recent decades.  Some of the worst and dumbest excesses of colonialism are steadily being unwound.   




It's a treacherous road though, all the same. No matter how gracious, open, supportive or understanding the general environment, cultural integration breaks down under its internal contradictions when the dominant culture (whatever that might be, anglosaxon, Chinese, Martian) still tacitly expects the minority culture to internalise the values of the dominant culture and somehow reconcile any tension with their own values in their own little bubble without challenging the values of the prevailing culture.

You see this time and time again in popular culture. Members of minorities "making it" within the framework of the dominant culture and everyone patting themselves on the backs, saying, see? we are not racist, we have a FN CEO, minister or whatever, but remaining completely oblivious to the actual problem, that the dominant culture has effectively suffocated the minority's culture of all room to breathe. 

The only solution I can see, is for a true dialog where the dominant culture is just as open to listen, learn and change based on what the minority culture has to offer. Anything else is basically just cultural annihilation, and, when it comes down to it, a pretty big loss for all involved.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 1, 2021 - 11:38am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

yeah, some pretty horrific news coming out of Canada, which is kind of unusual. The big issue though is where you take it from here.

Yeah....   I am worried that many will jump to the worst conclusions without any details of these unmarked grave sites.   These discoveries could reinforce an ideology of victimization that could later hamper growth to more autonomy and security.

I worry that the flood gates of public transfers to FN communities will open up even further in an indiscriminate fashion.

I feel very, very sorry for elderly FNs here in BC that are believing, practising, deeply religious Catholics.  I feel awful for the honourable priests, nuns and lay Catholics who have sacrificed so much to help others.   

I personally believe that it is critical to recognize the positive contributions made by the residential schools.  Many university-trained chiefs attended residential schools.   

It is also vital to understand the alternatives at the time.  There were none.   Whether intended or not, educated political elites in FN communities appear to do a much better job of defending and promoting their interests than uneducated political elites in FN communities or anywhere else for that matter.

As for the domestic abuse and violence that still plagues some FN communities, the more jobs, the better.   In that direction, many FN communities are making huge strides as workers, contractors and entrepreneurs.    This is happening in part thanks to the residential schools.   In part thanks to affirmative action hiring programs that have been adopted both by government and many private companies, in particular resource companies.  

It may be hard to recognize it at the moment but the status and rights of First Nations have been steadily improving in recent decades.  Some of the worst and dumbest excesses of colonialism are steadily being unwound.   


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2021 - 8:45am

 westslope wrote:
Happy Canada Day!

Despite the deadly weather, the forest fires and other wild fires, hundreds of unmarked First Nation children graves, and so on.       Sometimes being Canadian just sucks hard. 

A neighbour is the daughter of Indo-Ugandian refugees who escaped Idi Amin.   I will wager her parents are super grateful that a place like Canada exists.  
 
yeah, some pretty horrific news coming out of Canada, which is kind of unusual. The big issue though is where you take it from here.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 1, 2021 - 8:11am

Happy Canada Day!

Despite the deadly weather, the forest fires and other wild fires, hundreds of unmarked First Nation children graves, and so on.       Sometimes being Canadian just sucks hard. 

A neighbour is the daughter of Indo-Ugandian refugees who escaped Idi Amin.   I will wager her parents are super grateful that a place like Canada exists.  
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jun 29, 2021 - 9:40am

At least 4 Catholic churches were destroyed on Indigenous land in a week
R_P

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Posted: Jun 24, 2021 - 11:47am

751 unmarked graves found at residential school
R_P

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Posted: Jun 10, 2021 - 11:08pm

Canadian Brass plays Venezuelan Joropo (sin embargo) - feat. Hector Molina & Manuel Rangel

R_P

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Posted: Jun 8, 2021 - 10:19am


Trudeau condemns London hit-and-run that left four Muslim family members dead
westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jun 4, 2021 - 4:29pm

 R_P wrote:

It's the governments that are ultimately responsible for sanctioning violence through other actors. The RC is but one player. Anglicans, United, etc. are all part of those partnerships.


Not sure I would go that far.  But ultimately an institution in charge of looking after minors is responsible for what happens to those minors regardless of the source of the abuse, violence, etc.  

Yes, the other Christian churches played a role in this saga too.    Overall, and this is a broad sweeping generation, the other Christian churches have been much better than the RC church at recognizing and taking responsibility for past failures.  

The RC church really should grow up.  Just look at how the RC church has managed to so thoroughly alienate so many in Quebec.  Just look at how its presence and influence has diminished so much in Quebec over the past half a century.  

Prediction:  The RC church will not significantly change until women can become priests and all priests are allowed to marry.

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jun 4, 2021 - 4:15pm

 westslope wrote:
I am not convinced that "forced assimilation" was always the motive.   Recall that school attendance is and has been mandatory for the rest of the population.

It certainly was early on, though it might have evolved somewhat over time.
In Canada, the Indian residential school system was a network of boarding schools for Indigenous peoples. The network was funded by the Canadian government's Department of Indian Affairs and administered by Christian churches. The school system was created for the purpose of removing Indigenous children from the influence of their own culture and assimilating them into the dominant Canadian culture, "to kill the Indian in the child."

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jun 4, 2021 - 4:08pm

 westslope wrote:
No.  I am not implying that at all.   

But I am saying that much of the abuse came at the hands of other FN children, which should not surprise anybody given a) the tribal nature of BC FN communities and b) the social dynamics of these kinds of institutional settings.  

Once again, the adults in the charge — Roman Catholic clergy — were responsible.   Just like the US armed forces are ultimately responsible for all conflict deaths post-invasion and occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan.   Or just like the Israeli Occupation Forces are responsible for the atrocities committed in southern Lebanon under their watch. 

PM Justin Trudeau is calling for the Roman Catholic church to release archived records.   Will we know more later?  Perhaps.  


It's the governments that are ultimately responsible for sanctioning violence through other actors. The RC is but one player. Anglicans, United, etc. are all part of those partnerships.

westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jun 4, 2021 - 3:44pm

 kcar wrote:

Westslope, I get the impression that you're implying that the missing FN children died at the hands of other FN children and not school/church staff. Do you have any evidence to back up this apparent assertion? 


No.  I am not implying that at all.   

But I am saying that much of the abuse came at the hands of other FN children, which should not surprise anybody given a) the tribal nature of BC FN communities and b) the social dynamics of these kinds of institutional settings.  

Once again, the adults in the charge — Roman Catholic clergy — were responsible.   Just like the US armed forces are ultimately responsible for all conflict deaths post-invasion and occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan.   Or just like the Israeli Occupation Forces are responsible for the atrocities committed in southern Lebanon under their watch. 

PM Justin Trudeau is calling for the Roman Catholic church to release archived records.   Will we know more later?  Perhaps.  

westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jun 4, 2021 - 3:37pm

 R_P wrote:

No. Merely showing the existing mindset and prevailing conditions (of settler-colonialism), which left little room for speaking out.

Though apples and oranges, structural abuse in white boarding schools would merit a national debate as well. But it's a bit of a red herring.

The abuse (and trauma) started with kids being forcibly taken from their parents for the purpose of forced assimilation.

Colonialism remains an ongoing process, shaping both the structure and the quality of the relationship between the settlers and Indigenous peoples.


I am not convinced that "forced assimilation" was always the motive.   Recall that school attendance is and has been mandatory for the rest of the population.

Much of the current crop of FN leadership in British Columbia went through the residential school system.  Many of them would have never made it to university without the residential school system.    Educated FN leaders tend to a much better job of looking after their communities than uneducated leaders or outsiders.


R_P

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Posted: Jun 4, 2021 - 12:37pm

TRC requested $1.5M to find graves at residential schools. The feds denied the money in 2009
R_P

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Posted: Jun 2, 2021 - 12:33pm

‘The Story of a National Crime’
A century ago, Dr. Peter Bryce demonstrated that residential schools were designed to kill. Canada’s government ignored him.
Canada, a nation full of deep secrets and afflicted by selective memories, can no longer keep this “national crime” hidden anymore.

Nations can deny history, ignore history, minimize history, postpone history and even rewrite history.

But they can’t grow up without facing history for a simple reason. “Knowing the before lets you create a different after.”

miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2021 - 4:23am

 kcar wrote:

Westslope, I get the impression that you're implying that the missing FN children died at the hands of other FN children and not school/church staff. Do you have any evidence to back up this apparent assertion? 



probably died from infectious disease?
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jun 2, 2021 - 2:37am

Westslope, I get the impression that you're implying that the missing FN children died at the hands of other FN children and not school/church staff. Do you have any evidence to back up this apparent assertion? 
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jun 1, 2021 - 7:57pm

 westslope wrote:
RP.  If you are saying larger society failed in its 'job' to oversee organizations of the Catholic church administer services to the larger population and to its own congregations, then yes.

In my experience listening to victims abuse, people knew about the abuse or appalling conditions but for one or another reason stayed quiet.  Expecting a top down-driven resolution of abuse and simply poor care in that kind of context, certainly in the past, is unrealistic.  

I have chatted up FNs who have described abuse suffered at the hands of other FN boys.  Standard stuff, if you ask me.  Should the RC managers have prevented the worst excesses of violence?  Absolutely yes.  

If white kids at a boarding school beat the piss out of each other, do we crank up a national debate?

No need for a counter-example.  I figured out very early in primary school that it was good to have educated, articulate parents to take up your cause.  Hierarchy.  There are reasons why social anarchism and political ecology acquired influence in the late 20th century.

If you are insinuating that the buried were all murdered, well, we might know in a few months or years depending on how long the investigation takes.


No. Merely showing the existing mindset and prevailing conditions (of settler-colonialism), which left little room for speaking out.

Though apples and oranges, structural abuse in white boarding schools would merit a national debate as well. But it's a bit of a red herring.

The abuse (and trauma) started with kids being forcibly taken from their parents for the purpose of forced assimilation.

Colonialism remains an ongoing process, shaping both the structure and the quality of the relationship between the settlers and Indigenous peoples.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jun 1, 2021 - 6:58pm

 R_P wrote:

In partnership with the government:
Roman Catholic, Anglican, United, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches were the major denominations involved in the administration of the residential school system. The government’s partnership with the churches remained in place until 1969, and, although most of the schools had closed by the 1980s, the last federally supported residential schools remained in operation until the late 1990s


What is "much"? Citation please...

One counter-example (or several actually):

At the Alberni School on Vancouver Island, which was in operation from 1892 to 1973 under the United Church, punishments were particularly harsh, and treatment of the children was often brutal. A staff member in 1961 and 1962, Marian MacFarlane, was fired for attempting to rescue a young child from a severe beating.

The local dentists were given free Novocaine by the government for the Native kids, but the traditional practice after the war years was for them to hoard the Novocaine for their practice in Port Alberni and just work on the Indians without painkillers. Everyone in the school knew about this and condoned it, from the principal on down. No one minded when Indians were hurt, naturally; they were being beaten every day.

To give you an example of the prevailing mentality towards Indians, I once caught a matron beating a little girl with a piano leg. She was just murdering that kid, who was maybe six years old, and she would have killed her if I hadn’t have grabbed the matron and socked her one. So off the matron goes to complain to John Andrews, the principal. That would have been in 1962. You know what Andrews did? He fired me for hitting the matron! And you know what he said? ‘I couldn’t let the matron go because she plays the organ on Sundays. Anything she did to that little squaw would have been better than us losing our organist.’ Well, that shows you what we were dealing with: the lives of the Indian kids were completely expendable. They were considered less than human, almost like a disease we had to get rid of.



RP.  If you are saying larger society failed in its 'job' to oversee organizations of the Catholic church administer services to the larger population and to its own congregations, then yes.

In my experience listening to victims abuse, people knew about the abuse or appalling conditions but for one or another reason stayed quiet.  Expecting a top down-driven resolution of abuse and simply poor care in that kind of context, certainly in the past, is unrealistic.  

I have chatted up FNs who have described abuse suffered at the hands of other FN boys.  Standard stuff, if you ask me.  Should the RC managers have prevented the worst excesses of violence?  Absolutely yes.  

If white kids at a boarding school beat the piss out of each other, do we crank up a national debate?

No need for a counter-example.  I figured out very early in primary school that it was good to have educated, articulate parents to take up your cause.  Hierarchy.  There are reasons why social anarchism and political ecology acquired influence in the late 20th century.

If you are insinuating that the buried were all murdered, well, we might know in a few months or years depending on how long the investigation takes.
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