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westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 7, 2023 - 3:26pm

 marko86 wrote:


What about the countries that chose to join Nato due to the existential threat of Russia? Are they not sovereign countries? Don't that have a say?  If they would have let Ukraine join do you think Russia would be invading now? 

...


Sure the do.  Are you familiar with the concept of social dilemmas?  You might know the concept better as a prisoners' dilemma or The Tragedy of the Commons.  Individual rational decisions lead to bad outcomes (overfishing, freeway congestion, arms races, etc.).


Let me use another metaphor.  Would you allow a small child or an adult under your care to wet their fingers and stick them in an electrical socket?  Do not adults have a personal right to not wear a seat belt?

Europe has a long history of successful armed neutral nation states.   Sweden and Switzerland kept out of WW II for the obvious benefit of the people living there.   Finland has defeated Soviet advances in the mid-20th century.    All three of those states have maintained close intelligence and security relationships with other rich western nations.

If the honest to God security of people living in East Europe was the primary objective and not US agricultural and weapon systems exports to those countries, for example, then denying official NATO membership while forging closer security and economic ties would have been the way to go.

The USA plays this game with China and Taiwan without too much difficulty.   Unless diverting US public opinion from thorny challenging US domestic economic and social problems is the objective.  

Do you believe that the USA has a right to place nuclear weapons in NATO member countries close the former Soviet Union and possibly now Russia?   

How do you explain the US discomfort at nuclear weapons placed in Castro's Cuba?  Did not Cuba have a sovereign right to choose Soviet missiles in its own country?  The USA was clearly very hostile to the regime.  



marko86

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Location: North TX
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2023 - 5:26am

 westslope wrote:


By all means, spend a few paragraphs and explain why the USA and other NATO allies ignored the Russian preference for NATO to stay out of Eastern Europe.

And then contrast with the US official recognition of China but not Taiwan despite the obvious close ties to Taiwan.


Afghanistan:  If the USA had given the Taliban regime in Afghanistan a week or two, who knows?  Perhaps the Taliban would have hand-delivered Osama Bin Laden.

Or barring that possibility, perhaps sober thought would have prevailed in the USA and instead of invading and occupying Afghanistan, US armed forces might have struck a few targets within Afghanistan sending a clear message to the unwitting hosts of Al-Qaeda.

Would have saved countless Afghani lives and a few American lives too along with more than a few American tax payer dollars.  That would have prevented the global chattering class from shaking their heads and marveling (again) at the ahistoricism of political elites in the USA.    Or pushing some to ask if the US armed forces always needed live targets to practice on.





What about the countries that chose to join Nato due to the existential threat of Russia? Are they not sovereign countries? Don't that have a say?  If they would have let Ukraine join do you think Russia would be invading now? 

Afghanistan, you may have a point. We were certainly there longer then we needed to, but in your what-if game, things could have been handled differently to a different outcome.

You seem to have left out Iraq for some reason. Given all the reasons we went there, namely the WMD, appears based on lies, that would seem worth mentioning.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 5, 2023 - 2:31pm

 haresfur wrote:


Listen up, we tried that an it didn't work.


By all means, spend a few paragraphs and explain why the USA and other NATO allies ignored the Russian preference for NATO to stay out of Eastern Europe.

And then contrast with the US official recognition of China but not Taiwan despite the obvious close ties to Taiwan.


Afghanistan:  If the USA had given the Taliban regime in Afghanistan a week or two, who knows?  Perhaps the Taliban would have hand-delivered Osama Bin Laden.

Or barring that possibility, perhaps sober thought would have prevailed in the USA and instead of invading and occupying Afghanistan, US armed forces might have struck a few targets within Afghanistan sending a clear message to the unwitting hosts of Al-Qaeda.

Would have saved countless Afghani lives and a few American lives too along with more than a few American tax payer dollars.  That would have prevented the global chattering class from shaking their heads and marveling (again) at the ahistoricism of political elites in the USA.    Or pushing some to ask if the US armed forces always needed live targets to practice on.



haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2023 - 12:16am

 thisbody wrote:

You mean history like this?



Huh? Not at all like that.
Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Apr 4, 2023 - 1:59pm

 thisbody wrote:

You mean history like this?

^^^ Excellent read, that article.
thisbody

thisbody Avatar

Location: empty pages
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 4, 2023 - 1:57pm

 haresfur wrote:
More history

You mean history like this?

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 3, 2023 - 8:50pm

 westslope wrote:

More American-style BS?



More history
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 3, 2023 - 12:56pm

 haresfur wrote:


Listen up, we tried that an it didn't work.

More American-style BS?

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 2, 2023 - 4:17pm

 westslope wrote:

My damn clever strategy was to avoid granting NATO membership to the former members of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact.    My strategy was to slowly, patiently co-opt Russia into the western fold which would have created sustainable peace and security in eastern Europe and would have created sustainable economic and security benefits for the USA and other rich western nations.





Listen up, we tried that an it didn't work.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 2, 2023 - 11:17am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

You seem to be dodging the question. Russia's trade balance 1990 to 2020 though I am sure you are already aware of this. 

Russia, like Australia, has had a very cozy time of it, selling off its natural resources. That is what I mean by creaming it. But that is not the point I was making. The point is, Russia has totally infiltrated the highest levels of the German government. Maybe the German's were thinking that was the best way to contain Russia. Whatever it was, the upper echelons of government on both sides were totally in cahoots with each other. The very strategy you claim to have been the better course rather than this alleged aggressive NATO expansion is what the actual strategy was.. lived and breathed.. by most of the European Union and most of all by Germany.

So if this strategy of yours was so damn clever, why didn't this keep the peace?
 

Listen up NoEnzo...   I am a well socialized freemarket economist who, contrary to you, pretends to understand something about data, measurement and economics.   Trade balance rhetoric is typically for the 'little people'.  

Cozy time?    What is wrong with you man?   Selling off?     Are you a Man of the People like a MAGA Republican?  

"Totally infiltrated"?     Now you are making up stuff and lying like a typical American.  

"The very strategy you claim to have been the better course rather than this alleged aggressive NATO expansion is what the actual strategy was.. lived and breathed.. by most of the European Union and most of all by Germany."   More lies worthy of MAGA Republicans.....

So if this strategy of yours was so damn clever, why didn't this keep the peace?    Hey NoEnzo...   you just got an A+ from Herr Joseph Goebbels.     

My damn clever strategy was to avoid granting NATO membership to the former members of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact.    My strategy was to slowly, patiently co-opt Russia into the western fold which would have created sustainable peace and security in eastern Europe and would have created sustainable economic and security benefits for the USA and other rich western nations.

In the meantime, please note that many countries in Europe have been economically hammered while the USA has radically increased LNG exports to Europe.  Canada has also indirectly benefited from the those hugely expensive LNG imports, viewed from the European consumer perspective.  

I find it odd that you live in Germany, yet you seem to really not care about the welfare of Germans and other Europeans.

For the record, I view Russia as a reliable source of natural gas and other raw material imports from the European perspective.    It would be foolish for Europe to say no to Russian energy sources going forward, especially natural gas.  

But if you and others want to benefit special interests in Canada and the USA going forward, please feel free.  This will not be the first nor the last time that Europe has suffered from US-lead foreign policy.  


R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 1, 2023 - 10:45pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Corruption is corruption, no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

But unfortunately, and almost clichéd, it's widespread. Undermining democratic values and confidence.

In the new energy order the kickbacks will come from different sources and go to different parties.

And it will work the same way in Poland. Or Estonia. Or France.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 1, 2023 - 10:21pm

 R_P wrote:

Sounds like you need a House Un-German Activities Committee, Herr McCarthy.




You are actually not wrong, not in the sense of McCarthyism, but to uncover the massive corruption with pretty ham-fisted cover-ups (one tax clerk burnt a set of tax files of an "environmental institute" on the Polish border, an institute funded by Gazprom and run by various SPD politicians, all to do with Nordstream ).
Corruption is corruption, no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

The SPD  (leaders of the coalition government) are sweeping this under the carpet but that would be mistake for future EU relationships. The Poles for instance, have lost all respect for Germany's political leadership. And rightly so. 

R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 1, 2023 - 1:17pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
The point is, Russia has totally infiltrated the highest levels of the German government.

Sounds like you need a House Un-German Activities Committee, Herr McCarthy. 

Freedom Gas™

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 1, 2023 - 12:42pm

 westslope wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

..... So, why didn't it work? Russia was creaming it and had half of Europe dependent on its oil and gas supplies. Economy was rock solid, trade balance likewise..  so why throw it all away? Or at least risk destroying such a cozy arrangement?

What do you mean by "creaming it"? Yes, amassing troops on the border and invading Ukraine has come at a huge cost to Russia.  Then Germany and many other European countries are paying a significant economic cost too. Norway is benefiting along with other net exporters of oil and natural gas.  Some in the USA made out like bandits on US LNG exports to Europe although overall the cost-benefit equation for the entire US economy looks negative.
 
You seem to be dodging the question. Russia's trade balance 1990 to 2020 though I am sure you are already aware of this. 

Russia, like Australia, has had a very cozy time of it, selling off its natural resources. That is what I mean by creaming it. But that is not the point I was making. The point is, Russia has totally infiltrated the highest levels of the German government. Maybe the German's were thinking that was the best way to contain Russia. Whatever it was, the upper echelons of government on both sides were totally in cahoots with each other. The very strategy you claim to have been the better course rather than this alleged aggressive NATO expansion is what the actual strategy was.. lived and breathed.. by most of the European Union and most of all by Germany.

So if this strategy of yours was so damn clever, why didn't this keep the peace?
 
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 1, 2023 - 12:25pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

.....

So, why didn't it work? Russia was creaming it and had half of Europe dependent on its oil and gas supplies. Economy was rock solid, trade balance likewise..  so why throw it all away? Or at least risk destroying such a cozy arrangement?



What do you mean by "creaming it"?

Yes, amassing troops on the border and invading Ukraine has come at a huge cost to Russia.  Then Germany and many other European countries are paying a significant economic cost too.

Norway is benefiting along with other net exporters of oil and natural gas.  Some in the USA made out like bandits on US LNG exports to Europe although overall the cost-benefit equation for the entire US economy looks negative.


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Mar 26, 2023 - 1:30pm

 R_P wrote:
Uh-oh, a vassal cage fight.


Good one!    

Actually, quite hilarious.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2023 - 9:36am

 westslope wrote:
First, Happy Monroe Doctrine,  NoEnzo.  Which is a fancy of saying, Happy Hypocritical Killing of Innocents!

Let's roll the clock back to WW II.  Recall that many regard WW II to be a direct result of the harsh punishing conditions of the Treaty of Versailles.

Yeah, let's. I forgot to wish you a happy anniversary of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Yes, there are people who blame WW2 entirely on the Treaty of Versailles. They're wrong. They miss (or excuse) the seething nationalism and racism of the National Socialist movement, and the widespread cultural and political divisions—brutally suppressed, even before Hitler rose to power—in Germany after WW1. I don't have time this morning to sort that out for you, but there is ample historical material out there if you want to spend the time reading it.

3 1/2 million Germanic and Slavic peoples of Jewish descent died in horrific conditions.  Would you have preferred to see more die?

18 million or more Russians died.   Not enough for you?    Many credit Russian resistance and sacrifices as the key element in the bid to crush the Nazi existential threat.

This is so far out of left field it's difficult to even call it a non-sequitur. More of a deranged poo-fling.

Yes, Russian losses in WW2 were horrific, and the main counter to the German military was the Russian front. Those horrific losses were in large part due to Stalin's ham-fisted, brutal, and cruel military leadership. He drove the Red Army much like the Russian Army is fighting in eastern Ukraine—grinding frontal assaults, sacrificing large numbers of troops in brute-force attacks and hold-to-the-last-man defenses.

Recall that the USA sealed victory against the Nazis by directly targeting innocent civilians in German industrial towns.  Not with percussion bombs but with fire bombs.  Lovely, eh?

Pretty much every historian agrees with the military assessments at the time: that the civilian bombings had little effect on the German war effort. And the worst indiscriminate targeting of civilians was done by the British, mostly as a vindictive response to the German air raids early in the war.

The USA and fellow travelling companions were warned not to push NATO into former Warsaw Pact countries.  Did it anyways.  For what?  The promise of greater US agricultural and weapon system exports?   The USA initially promised not to do that but as is so often the case broke its word.  Forked tongue all over again.

Gosh, sorry Vladimir. You were totally provoked by allowing your former vassal states to join an alliance to protect themselves from your imperial aims.

Go ahead and carve up a neighboring country so you can make things right. Kill whoever you need to. Our bad.

The alternative would have been to slowly, patiently co-opt Russia into the western family.  That would have been great for US economic outcomes given the resource richness of Russia and great for US security interests given Russia's international relations and peculiar talents in the realm of security.    That would have secured eastern European security in a cost-effective, sustainable manner.

You seem to have missed the early part of the 21st century—the trade deals, the economic bailouts, the blind eye turned toward Russian aggression against its neighbors—Georgia, eastern Ukraine, the brutal handling of dissent in places like Chechnya. When you catch up on WW2 maybe you could brush up on more recent history.

Yet you support the invasion of the Holy Lands by Germanic and Slavic peoples calling themselves Jewish, the ethnic cleansing origins of the Jewish-only Israeli state and now the settlement of the West Bank by Jewish-only settlers, militarily occupied since 1967.  It is interesting when the Israeli state deploys tactics widely used by those fighting Nazism to demonize Nazis,  you and others say nothing.   

Admit it, you are a fan of the Hill Top Youths (brown shirts?) and the Outposts, are you not?   You approved of the Gestapo-like sweep of the West Bank conducted by the IOF in 2016 against Hamas at the very moment that Hamas appeared ready to sign on to the accords between the PA and Israel.  You have no issue with Israeli kill ratios do you?  Does 1:5 meet your approval? 

I'd ask where on earth this came from, but it's getting hard to care. Hope it hurt when you pulled it out.

Here we are.   How many hundred of thousands of more Ukrainian lives are you willing to sacrifice in order to attain glorious victory in Ukraine?  How far are you willing to punish European economies or drive the US debt higher?    How much are you willing to weaken and erode US hegemony in order to accomplish this goal?

Because this is all about Amerikkka, and Europe (and especially Ukraine) have nothing to say about it. They just do what they Yanks tell them to.

Europe should have been able to head this war off and (failing that) deal with the Russian threat without the US' help. It didn't and it couldn't because Europe has relied on US military muscle for far too long. This invasion and annexation were stark wake-up calls. The electorates in Europe are realizing that they need their own military counter to that threat.

Or put differently, explain to us how this bloody proxy war fueled by NATO weapons will ultimately make the USA stronger.

You do understand the NoEnz isn't an American, right? Of course you do.

None of this helps the US. It's a complete waste of lives and resources. When the war concludes the world will be the poorer for it. It's odd that you blame those who resist but not those who started it.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2023 - 1:37pm

 R_P wrote:
Uh-oh, a vassal cage fight.



hey, who are you calling vassal, you serf!
R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2023 - 1:34pm

Uh-oh, a vassal cage fight.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2023 - 1:05pm

 westslope wrote:

First, Happy Monroe Doctrine,  NoEnzo.  Which is a fancy of saying, Happy Hypocritical Killing of Innocents! 

Let's roll the clock back to WW II.  Recall that many regard WW II to be a direct result of the harsh punishing conditions of the Treaty of Versailles.

3 1/2 million Germanic and Slavic peoples of Jewish descent died in horrific conditions.  Would you have preferred to see more die?

18 million or more Russians died.   Not enough for you?    Many credit Russian resistance and sacrifices as the key element in the bid to crush the Nazi existential threat.

Recall that the USA sealed victory against the Nazis by directly targeting innocent civilians in German industrial towns.  Not with percussion bombs but with fire bombs.  Lovely, eh? 

The USA and fellow travelling companions were warned not to push NATO into former Warsaw Pact countries.  Did it anyways.  For what?  The promise of greater US agricultural and weapon system exports?   The USA initially promised not to do that but as is so often the case broke its word.  Forked tongue all over again.

The alternative would have been to slowly, patiently co-opt Russia into the western family.  That would have been great for US economic outcomes given the resource richness of Russia and great for US security interests given Russia's international relations and peculiar talents in the realm of security.    That would have secured eastern European security in a cost-effective, sustainable manner.  

Yet you support the invasion of the Holy Lands by Germanic and Slavic peoples calling themselves Jewish, the ethnic cleansing origins of the Jewish-only Israeli state and now the settlement of the West Bank by Jewish-only settlers, militarily occupied since 1967.  It is interesting when the Israeli state deploys tactics widely used by those fighting Nazism to demonize Nazis,  you and others say nothing.     

Admit it, you are a fan of the Hill Top Youths (brown shirts?) and the Outposts, are you not?   You approved of the Gestapo-like sweep of the West Bank conducted by the IOF in 2016 against Hamas at the very moment that Hamas appeared ready to sign on to the accords between the PA and Israel.  You have no issue with Israeli kill ratios do you?  Does 1:5 meet your approval? 

Here we are.   How many hundred of thousands of more Ukrainian lives are you willing to sacrifice in order to attain glorious victory in Ukraine?  How far are you willing to punish European economies or drive the US debt higher?    How much are you willing to weaken and erode US hegemony in order to accomplish this goal?

Or put differently, explain to us how this bloody proxy war fueled by NATO weapons will ultimately make the USA stronger.








This is such a dog's breakfast of offensive attacks against NoEnzLeftToSplit that I'm pretty aghast. Nevermind the twisted mind that somehow equates the occupation and partition of Europe by the Soviets with peace. And don't get me started on your using every topic to stamp your feet about Israel to deflect from what is actually being discussed. But this time you are effectively accusing him of being a Nazi.

Since this is the Canada topic, I'm not going to take it further than saying you are way off base with your attacks on his integrity.
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