steeler wrote:
That's neither contested nor justifiable. But it behooves us to figure out how we got to this point.

 steeler wrote:

I think we are learning how life was behind the Soviet Union in the 1950's and 60's, coups and propaganda and fake news.

 kurtster wrote:
I agree, it pisses me off too that Trump thought NATO was no longer necessary and... if he had his way... we wouldn't be a part of it anymore. Finally a shared gripe about Trump that we can both agree on. It pisses me off too that he held up funds to Ukraine that were already agreed and committed to and got himself impeached because of it.  

Finally, why are you so hung up on others who are rightfully concerned about Climate Change? The Ukraine Crisis is an immediate threat with long term impact and Climate Change is longer term threat but they are both threats any way you cut it. It's not an either-or proposition.
 
Are you saying America can't possibly work on multiple issues at once? You must be one hell of a multi-tasker.

Hmmmm . . .

Which country invaded which country? In all the commotion, perhaps that has been pushed to the bottom of the rhetorical totem pole.

This thread seems more a case of “you can’t tell the players without a program.”

Few are as embedded in the Blob (US FP establishment) as Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland.

From Glenn Greenwald, no paywall:

Victoria Nuland: Ukraine Has “Biological Research Facilities,” Worried Russia May Seize Them

The neocon’s confession sheds critical light on the U.S. role in Ukraine, and raises vital questions about these labs that deserve answers.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological?s=r

wave of cold arctic air on its way into Ukraine and eastern Europe

as if they didn't have enough to cope with.

 Ivanhoe wrote: 
Laying the groundwork for your boss to use them, are you? Nice work, really. You guys are as transparent as gossamer paper.

Some perplexing and possibly bad signs. Poland’s public announcement that it would transfer MIGs to US base in Germany for subsequent transfer to Ukraine was difficult to understand, as it apparently caught US  by surprise and was quickly labeled “untenable” by the US. 

Biden’s announcement of US ban on oil/gas from Russia was a unilateral action that seems more motivated by domestic political demands. Germany and Hungary already had stated their opposition to such bans  in their countries.

Up till this point, it at least appeared that the NATO members were trying to take actions in unison. Signs of any breakdown in that unity likely will bolster Putin.

Saudis, UAE Refuse To Take Biden's Calls To Discuss Ukraine Situation, Talk To Putin Instead

Maybe it was a mistake to call Saudi Arabia a "pariah" state...

Ukraine Ready For "Diplomatic Solution" But Won't Trade "Single Inch" Of Territories: Zelensky Aide

Some negotiating back and forth, now that Ukraine's core demand for membership in NATO appears to no longer be on the table.

Doesn't look like liberation to me.

Chernobyl site knocked off power grid

Can we do something about these Russian trolls on here?

An International Relations Theory Guide to the War in Ukraine - Stephen M. Walt/FP
A consideration of which theories have been vindicated—and which have fallen flat.

Warfare also has its own logic, and it unleashes political forces that tend to drown out alternative voices, even in societies where freedom of speech and open debate remain intact. Because the stakes are high, wartime is when public officials, the media, and the citizenry should work hardest to resist stereotypes, think coolly and carefully, avoid hyperbole and simplistic clichés, and above all remain open to the possibility that they might be wrong and that a different course of action is required. Once the bullets start flying, however, what typically occurs is a narrowing of vision, a rapid descent into Manichaean modes of thought, the marginalization or suppression of dissenting voices, the abandonment of nuance, and a stubborn focus on victory at all costs. This process seems to be well underway inside Putin’s Russia, but a milder form is apparent in the West too. All told, this is a recipe for making a terrible situation worse.

Ukraine just needs to give up the right to be in Nato and recognize Odessa which is 75% Russian to be in the Russia sphere and same with 2 other eastern provinces, give up those three areas and give up Nato and then Putin says he is all set, no more war. And Putin is making 350 million per day in oil and gas sales, they are not going to give that up. So war will not happen they will negotiate giving up territory and right to be part of Nato.

This is very informative

 Animal-Farm wrote: I would imagine if we were being invaded by Russia, some people would change there minds.

Pentagon says Poland’s jet offer for Ukraine ‘not tenable’

 black321 wrote: 
Does anyone remember that Ukraine's sovereignty was guaranteed by treaty when they gave up their nukes after the fall of the USSR ?  IIRC, Ukraine then had the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal on earth.  Russia was a signatory to that treaty.  So much for a treaty going forward.  If they still had the nukes, this would not be going on right now.  And the other elephant in the Treaty Room is the CCP who was supposed to wait 50 years before a full assimilation of Hong Kong.

The mention here from abroad of the USA being the bad "good guys" whose transgressions are greater than either Russia or China and thus tarnished, irredeemable and without a proper moral voice on all of this makes me wonder even more how this all ends.  With there being even less reason to trust the USA's word over either Russia or China based on this view.

This stuff about Trump weakening NATO pisses me off, though.  All's Trump did was try to make everyone pay their bill.  The USA was carrying all of the freight, as someone mentioned about Libya somewhere, too.  The French sucked us in because Sweet Libyan Crude was what their refineries were built to run and they were almost totally dependent on Libyan oil.  Yet because they and the rest of NATO did not invest in their military like they were supposed to, they got us to run the air war, even though we had long settled our difference with Qadaffy and even had him on our payroll.  We destroyed a country because of France / the EU's (NATO's) personal local economic problems.

The only true imperialist empires right now are the Russian's and the Chinese.  They are the only ones seeking to add to their territory.  And now they are doing it aggressively.  The gloves are off.  So Climate Change is a bigger existential threat than this overt imperialism ?  Yeah, ok.  I'll have what y'all are smoking and get over it then, cuz it seems to be working for you.

Zelensky Ready To 'Discuss & Find Compromise' On Crimea, No Longer Insists On NATO Membership

"Regarding NATO, I have cooled down regarding this question..."