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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Oh GOD, they're GAY! Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 38, 39, 40  Next
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ptooey

ptooey Avatar

Location: right behind you. no, over there.
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 8:42am

 sirdroseph wrote:
...we humans are all the same...
 
I might have found the root of the comprehension issue.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 8:39am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
 I actually do not recall asking for government intervention on anything. And the history of your partners genitals is indeed not a matter for government intervention, but it is a matter for you as her husband, pretty sure I made that clear. I was kind of asking for nothing but an intellectual explanation on how one can feel gender as an identity when I cannot. 

That's where all this becomes a matter for public debate; unless someone is going to write a law it's all just talk.

Which is fine, talk all you like. But at the current moment we aren't just talking, this is about policy and people with guns enforcing it.

 




It is?? I guess I just don't get where you are coming from. I don't want anything from our government regarding this issue, I agree that government should have nothing to do with this. I am just struggling to understand the gender aspect because I instantly and intrinsically understand all other aspects of sexuality because I have sexuality myself and we humans are all the same, but I do not have a gender, I am a gender and cannot comprehend the difference and guess I never will in regards to all of those that apparently do have the ability to feel gender.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 8:27am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 I actually do not recall asking for government intervention on anything. And the history of your partners genitals is indeed not a matter for government intervention, but it is a matter for you as her husband, pretty sure I made that clear. I was kind of asking for nothing but an intellectual explanation on how one can feel gender as an identity when I cannot. 

That's where all this becomes a matter for public debate; unless someone is going to write a law it's all just talk.

Which is fine, talk all you like. But at the current moment we aren't just talking, this is about policy and people with guns enforcing it.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 8:21am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
It is in 2 incidents if the surgery was cost prohibitive and this elected plastic surgery were driving my taxes and health premiums up and of course the moral obligation of informing future sexual partners of your birth gender. If your wife were born a man, maybe it matters to you and maybe it does not, but you should have full knowledge to make that choice. 

Insurance coverage of gender reassignment surgery is separable from government intervention in people's lives. Heart disease is terribly expensive to treat, but that doesn't justify government prohibiting eating bacon or smoking.

The history of my partners genitals is also not a matter for government intervention.

 





I actually do not recall asking for government intervention on anything. And the history of your partners genitals is indeed not a matter for government intervention, but it is a matter for you as her husband, pretty sure I made that clear. I was kind of asking for nothing but an intellectual explanation on how one can feel gender as an identity when I cannot.


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 8:11am

 sirdroseph wrote:
It is in 2 incidents if the surgery was cost prohibitive and this elected plastic surgery were driving my taxes and health premiums up and of course the moral obligation of informing future sexual partners of your birth gender. If your wife were born a man, maybe it matters to you and maybe it does not, but you should have full knowledge to make that choice. 

Insurance coverage of gender reassignment surgery is separable from government intervention in people's lives. Heart disease is terribly expensive to treat, but that doesn't justify government prohibiting eating bacon or smoking.

The history of my partners genitals is also not a matter for government intervention.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 7:30am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
 That's good to know. 

I guess, but it really shouldn't drive the debate. The state of your reproductive organs is no one else's business.

It is in 2 incidents if the surgery was cost prohibitive and this elected plastic surgery were driving my taxes and health premiums up and of course the moral obligation of informing future sexual partners of your birth gender. If your wife were born a man, maybe it matters to you and maybe it does not, but you should have full knowledge to make that choice.

 
So-called "cosmetic" surgeries of any sort are not often covered by general health insurance or taxpayer coffers, though there is an increase in coverage with some insurance companies, given the criteria that Meower pointed out.


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 7:25am

 meower wrote:

So true, But since others are concerned about it, you cant get the surgery covered (and most surgeons won't do it) without proof of years living with gender dysphoria and documented MH access.

 



 




Actually I didn't know that. Thank you that does seem reasonable.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 7:11am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
 That's good to know. 

I guess, but it really shouldn't drive the debate. The state of your reproductive organs is no one else's business.

 




It is in 2 incidents if the surgery was cost prohibitive and this elected plastic surgery were driving my taxes and health premiums up and of course the moral obligation of informing future sexual partners of your birth gender. If your wife were born a man, maybe it matters to you and maybe it does not, but you should have full knowledge to make that choice.
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 6:57am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
 That's good to know. 

I guess, but it really shouldn't drive the debate. The state of your reproductive organs is no one else's business.

 
So true, But since others are concerned about it, you cant get the surgery covered (and most surgeons won't do it) without proof of years living with gender dysphoria and documented MH access.

 


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 6:51am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 That's good to know. 

I guess, but it really shouldn't drive the debate. The state of your reproductive organs is no one else's business.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 6:43am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
Ultimately this is where I am going to come down as well, doesn't mean that much to me personally other than intellectually not understanding. Provided the costly medical expenses involved though it is probably costing us all a good chunk of change in the form of health insurance premiums and taxes. 

Not as much as you might think. Not every transgendered person opts for surgery and hormone therapy isn't that costly.

 





That's good to know.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 6:41am

 sirdroseph wrote:
Ultimately this is where I am going to come down as well, doesn't mean that much to me personally other than intellectually not understanding. Provided the costly medical expenses involved though it is probably costing us all a good chunk of change in the form of health insurance premiums and taxes. 

Not as much as you might think. Not every transgendered person opts for surgery and hormone therapy isn't that costly.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 4:21am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Clearly (to me), there's an intensity of feeling that goes beyond anything I can relate to. So for the people who go through with it, I give them a pass, even while I suspect it won't help with the big picture of where that intense feeling comes from. 
 

 




Ultimately this is where I am going to come down as well, doesn't mean that much to me personally other than intellectually not understanding. Provided the costly medical expenses involved though it is probably costing us all a good chunk of change in the form of health insurance premiums and taxes.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 2:08am

 BlueHeronDruid wrote:

There were a couple of TG people here some years ago. This is what I learned.

It's not about sexuality. It's about identity.

Imagine waking up every morning with male parts, but knowing - not thinking, knowing - that you're actually a girl. A real girl trapped in a boy's body. The whole world sees you like a boy, and treats you like a boy. And inside, you know you're a girl. It's not an opinion. It's a fact. You are a girl inside.

I can't imagine having to live with that.
 
I cannot imagine that because I don't even know what it is like to feel like a male.
See this is what I don't understand.  I cannot comprehend identity as a feeling at all anymore than seeing music (and I have experienced synesthesia under the influence of lsd)  or tasting color.  I do not feel like a male or a female and I do not understand the concept at all.  I have feeling and desires for women because I happen to have been born heterosexual, but do not understand the concept of an internal feeling in regards to gender at all, it is just biology.  I mean if I feel like I am black do I have the right to surgically alter myself to look just like an African American and demand to be treated like one in all aspects of society including affirmative action, anti discrimination laws and so forth even though I was not born with the experience of being an African American having my ancestors oppressed and enslaved and so forth just like Rachel Dolenz?  Is it ok for Caitlyn Jenner to be the woman of the year and participate in women's equality events as a woman even though she has been a man most of her life not subject to discrimination that women face? This does not seem fair to me.   I guess this aspect is something I will never understand.  Gender is nothing but biology and social construct based upon that biology, we dress differently for the most part and have different roles based upon our biology and physical appearance something we already have the freedom to completely reject if we want, men are free to dress as women and vice versa. Women and other minorities have fought for and are fighting for equal and interchangeable roles in all aspects of society and more power to them.  Roles are not biology.  Oh well, I guess this is the impasse here.  Thanks for your comments!


haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2018 - 2:50pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
I have a legitimate question that I struggle with regarding gender.  I have always fully supported the gay and lesbian community; just as racism is irrational so is homophobia.  I have intrinsically understood that since I was the littlest shorty regardless of growing up in a racist and homophobic society.  For me it is about individual freedom of expression and being allowed to simply be what you are, this is being in line with nature.  In other words and I think most here would agree with me that it is cruel and unusual behavior to attempt to externally change ones sexuality, this goes against the laws of nature.  Everyone should be completely uninhibited to express their sexuality whatever that may be as long as the parties are consensual adults.  Perfectly logical, right?  However I struggle mightily when it comes to gender and those that wish to change their gender because of the way they feel.  To me it is hypocritical to on the one hand fight for the right to be what you are and also fight for the right to be what you are not.  Gender, just like sexuality is not a choice, it is a biological fact.  If you are born a man and want to be a woman, you have to surgically alter yourself to achieve this which goes against nature (not religion, I am an agnostic and do not do religion).  You just simply are a woman or a man by virtue of born anatomy, you may like the social construct of what it is to being the different gender, meaning you are born a man but are sexually attracted to men and want to look like a woman and that is fine and I fully support your lifestyle.  Just know you are a gay man who likes women's fashion and all of the other social attributes normally applied to women.  I just do not support going under the knife and changing your anatomy whilst being angry and defensive if someone calls you a man because that is the visual perception they are seeing not to mention the moral implications that modern medical technology has brought where the surgeries have gotten so complete you cannot tell the difference.  Should you tell every future partner of your true birth gender? Of course you should, but I would gather most do not for obvious reasons of fear of losing their partner therefore there is a lot of deceit going on out there. 

Now, I think these are legitimate concerns and not just the rantings of a neanderthal homophobic.  If this is what you see in these comments, then you did not read them very well or are not very good at reading comprehension.  I truly want to know what the mindset is for those that choose to go under the knife and that is the bottom line here.  As I said earlier, I fully support cross dressers and free expression of all sexualities and think a lot of them look really hot, just as long as the end of the day they still got the goods they were born with.   Someone please help me out here without all that silly anger and defensiveness, save that stuff for the ignorant masses.

 
Ok, so sexuality isn't determined by your body parts, so apparently neither is gender. 

I think the real question is what difference does it make to you (or me)? Heck, I have no understanding of what it is like to be a woman born with woman sex organs and I accept that don't have an innate understanding of what it is like to be one who was not.  
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Mar 25, 2018 - 1:19pm

 sirdroseph wrote:

Now, I think these are legitimate concerns and not just the rantings of a neanderthal homophobic.  If this is what you see in these comments, then you did not read them very well or are not very good at reading comprehension.  I truly want to know what the mindset is for those that choose to go under the knife and that is the bottom line here.  As I said earlier, I fully support cross dressers and free expression of all sexualities and think a lot of them look really hot, just as long as the end of the day they still got the goods they were born with.   Someone please help me out here without all that silly anger and defensiveness, save that stuff for the ignorant masses.

 
There were a couple of TG people here some years ago. This is what I learned.

It's not about sexuality. It's about identity.

Imagine waking up every morning with male parts, but knowing - not thinking, knowing - that you're actually a girl. A real girl trapped in a boy's body. The whole world sees you like a boy, and treats you like a boy. And inside, you know you're a girl. It's not an opinion. It's a fact. You are a girl inside.

I can't imagine having to live with that.

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Mar 25, 2018 - 12:16pm

Posted before, from 2015...
Caitlyn Jenner and Our Cognitive Dissonance
While biology shows us gender can be fluid, our brains struggle to see it that way.

 steeler wrote:
I am not following the argument that surgically altering one's gender is suspect because it goes against nature. (...)

Usually asserted by people who don't actually know nature.
PS: the same argument has of course been used for miscegenation and homosexuality.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Mar 25, 2018 - 10:46am

 Coaxial wrote:

Indeed, if they feel the need to go through that process then more farking power to them. It certainly can't be easy physically or mentally to do so...Much like coming out to the world...Choice my ass...No one would "choose" to be abused by so many.

 
Agreed.

I am not following the argument that surgically altering one's gender is suspect because it goes against nature. Many surgical procedures alter our bodies in ways that go against nature. Heart and kidney transplants. Removing a prostate afflicted with cancer. These procedures would be seen by most as beneficial uses of advancements in technology — prolonging life; improving the quality of life. Some might even disagree with these choices. But they are choices, ones I think people are — and should be — free to make.  This strikes me as no different.


Coaxial

Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles eas
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2018 - 6:57am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Clearly (to me), there's an intensity of feeling that goes beyond anything I can relate to. So for the people who go through with it, I give them a pass, even while I suspect it won't help with the big picture of where that intense feeling comes from. 
 

 
Indeed, if they feel the need to go through that process then more farking power to them. It certainly can't be easy physically or mentally to do so...Much like coming out to the world...Choice my ass...No one would "choose" to be abused by so many.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2018 - 6:45am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 I struggle mightily when it comes to gender and those that wish to change their gender because of the way they feel.  
 
Clearly (to me), there's an intensity of feeling that goes beyond anything I can relate to. So for the people who go through with it, I give them a pass, even while I suspect it won't help with the big picture of where that intense feeling comes from. 
 


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