I'd exempt the first 15K in income. 20% tax rate on income 15K-100K, 50% tax rate on everything else. This needs tweaking because I don't know enough to see if that covers the budget. But a simpler rate, where people have the largest portion of the benefit pay the largest portion of the burden. Everybody pays something. Limit exemptions and ways to make the system gameable.
That's basically the German system:
Zone I
0 to 9,744 tax free
Zone II
9,744 to 14,753
progressive tax starting at 14% tax on all taxable income in excess of 9,744
Zone III
14,754 to 57,918
progressive tax starting at 24% on all taxable income in excess of 14,753
Zone IV
57,919 to 274,612
tax rate of 42% on all taxable income in excess of 9,136
Zone V
tax rate of 45% on taxable income in excess of 17,375
The top 1% currently pays about 40% of the cost of running the place. The bottom 90% pay about 28% of the costs of running the country.
What's your proposal?
This isn't the right metric either. Top 1% is under 1 Million a year. That's big, but it fails to reflect the stratification and gigantic steps to the top 0.01%, and the top 0.001%. People rarely if ever make enough extra to move between those strata. And those guys in the top 0.001% are behind the Gates/Buffet/Musk/Bezos/Ellison/Walmart crew by BILLIONS of dollars.
So back to your question. Yes, they pay more, but they get exponentially more benefit. By your numbers, they are paying ~30% more of the burden. But they have captured 95% of the income increases over the past decade. Often their effective tax rates is lower than people in the lower tiers.
I'd exempt the first 15K in income. 20% tax rate on income 15K-100K, 50% tax rate on everything else. This needs tweaking because I don't know enough to see if that covers the budget. But a simpler rate, where people have the largest portion of the benefit pay the largest portion of the burden. Everybody pays something. Limit exemptions and ways to make the system gameable.
Do we need another tax cut? We do have budget issues, and did pay trillions of $ the last 18 months. Are WE (not them, over there, but we/us) going to pay for it?
I'd happily pay more if it got us a more European civilization. Also, the 1% needs to pay their share.
Do we need another tax cut? We do have budget issues, and did pay trillions of $ the last 18 months. Are WE (not them, over there, but we/us) going to pay for it?
Does everybody here realize how 'exceptional' the current American tax system is compared to let's say northern Europe? Or how much better the socio-economic outcomes are in northern Europe?
.... or understand the link between fiscal policy and inflation or the link between fiscal policy and national security?
So in early June, my pickup fan belt got shredded. It was new and so was the jockey wheel so I don't know what the deal was there, but the net result was me being broken down on the side of the road (exactly why you replace belts before they go bad, right?). I called the insurance and told them to call me a tow truck and they did so while I waited for that process to play out, a highway patrol cruiser pulled up to see if I was carrying 150 million dollars worth of fentanyl and/or if I needed help. I told them a tow truck had been called and bid them good day. Before he got back in his veekle, he said "by the way, your tags are expired." I looked down and the sticker said 7 2020 and it was only June so my brain said "ha ha ha idiot" thinking he was confused on the month but then I thought Ohhhh this is 2021 and I chuckled and said "ah, I must've told my son to put the stickers on and it never got done. So when I got home I dug around the pile of junk around the computer but never did find the stickers. But once I got back from vacation I went to the courthouse to pay for the new tags. Well she looked me up and said "this hasn't been registered since 2020" and I said "oh, do tell!" and she looked at it and me and said "if you pay now it'll be $160 for the last two weeks of July, then those stickers will be expired and you'll have to buy new stickers in August." I said can I just pay for the next year now? and she said no so I stood there for a minute and she finally said "just come back in August and pay for new stickers." I still wasn't tracking because I figured at that point I would have to pay $320 so what's the point? but I only have one blank check in my wallet because I never write checks so if I write a check now I will have to remember to get a blank check again next week and that's probably why I forgot to pay last summer, because the courthouse will take a credit card but they penalize you like 5% or something so write a check, chief! So I shrugged and went home. So today I remembered to go to the courthouse and she looked it up and said "It looks like you didn't register this veekle in 2020" and I said "nope," with a sheepish chuckle and she does all her paperwork and number crunching etc. and tells me, "that'll be $160." Here I was all prepared to say the truck had been in the shop and not driven for over a year but she just said $160 so I wrote a check for $160 and said goodbye and she said "see you next year," and I said "maybe" and she said "maybe" and we both chuckled.
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."
A friend says, "All bureaucracies need to have a built-in capacity for abuse or else nothing will ever get done."
Corollary: All systems of abuse will need to have a built-in bureaucracy. Else the corruption will grow exponentially, and people like Scott will never register their vehicles.
So in early June, my pickup fan belt got shredded. It was new and so was the jockey wheel so I don't know what the deal was there, but the net result was me being broken down on the side of the road (exactly why you replace belts before they go bad, right?). I called the insurance and told them to call me a tow truck and they did so while I waited for that process to play out, a highway patrol cruiser pulled up to see if I was carrying 150 million dollars worth of fentanyl and/or if I needed help. I told them a tow truck had been called and bid them good day. Before he got back in his veekle, he said "by the way, your tags are expired." I looked down and the sticker said 7 2020 and it was only June so my brain said "ha ha ha idiot" thinking he was confused on the month but then I thought Ohhhh this is 2021 and I chuckled and said "ah, I must've told my son to put the stickers on and it never got done. So when I got home I dug around the pile of junk around the computer but never did find the stickers. But once I got back from vacation I went to the courthouse to pay for the new tags. Well she looked me up and said "this hasn't been registered since 2020" and I said "oh, do tell!" and she looked at it and me and said "if you pay now it'll be $160 for the last two weeks of July, then those stickers will be expired and you'll have to buy new stickers in August." I said can I just pay for the next year now? and she said no so I stood there for a minute and she finally said "just come back in August and pay for new stickers." I still wasn't tracking because I figured at that point I would have to pay $320 so what's the point? but I only have one blank check in my wallet because I never write checks so if I write a check now I will have to remember to get a blank check again next week and that's probably why I forgot to pay last summer, because the courthouse will take a credit card but they penalize you like 5% or something so write a check, chief! So I shrugged and went home. So today I remembered to go to the courthouse and she looked it up and said "It looks like you didn't register this veekle in 2020" and I said "nope," with a sheepish chuckle and she does all her paperwork and number crunching etc. and tells me, "that'll be $160." Here I was all prepared to say the truck had been in the shop and not driven for over a year but she just said $160 so I wrote a check for $160 and said goodbye and she said "see you next year," and I said "maybe" and she said "maybe" and we both chuckled.
A friend says, "All bureaucracies need to have a built-in capacity for abuse or else nothing will ever get done."
So in early June, my pickup fan belt got shredded. It was new and so was the jockey wheel so I don't know what the deal was there, but the net result was me being broken down on the side of the road (exactly why you replace belts before they go bad, right?). I called the insurance and told them to call me a tow truck and they did so while I waited for that process to play out, a highway patrol cruiser pulled up to see if I was carrying 150 million dollars worth of fentanyl and/or if I needed help. I told them a tow truck had been called and bid them good day. Before he got back in his veekle, he said "by the way, your tags are expired." I looked down and the sticker said 7 2020 and it was only June so my brain said "ha ha ha idiot" thinking he was confused on the month but then I thought Ohhhh this is 2021 and I chuckled and said "ah, I must've told my son to put the stickers on and it never got done. So when I got home I dug around the pile of junk around the computer but never did find the stickers. But once I got back from vacation I went to the courthouse to pay for the new tags. Well she looked me up and said "this hasn't been registered since 2020" and I said "oh, do tell!" and she looked at it and me and said "if you pay now it'll be $160 for the last two weeks of July, then those stickers will be expired and you'll have to buy new stickers in August." I said can I just pay for the next year now? and she said no so I stood there for a minute and she finally said "just come back in August and pay for new stickers." I still wasn't tracking because I figured at that point I would have to pay $320 so what's the point? but I only have one blank check in my wallet because I never write checks so if I write a check now I will have to remember to get a blank check again next week and that's probably why I forgot to pay last summer, because the courthouse will take a credit card but they penalize you like 5% or something so write a check, chief! So I shrugged and went home. So today I remembered to go to the courthouse and she looked it up and said "It looks like you didn't register this veekle in 2020" and I said "nope," with a sheepish chuckle and she does all her paperwork and number crunching etc. and tells me, "that'll be $160." Here I was all prepared to say the truck had been in the shop and not driven for over a year but she just said $160 so I wrote a check for $160 and said goodbye and she said "see you next year," and I said "maybe" and she said "maybe" and we both chuckled.
Around 2008 I was in the audience when Paul Krugman was speaking and I got to ask a question, which was: In the early-80's the Kennedy family fortune was said to be $400 million. Today $400 million is a good year on Wall Street for one man (it was always a man then). My question is, where is it all coming from?
He umd...and thought about it...and eventually said "Well, it's not funny money." Meaning it was not literally counterfeit money. But that was all he could come up with.
The trouble is it might as well be counterfeit money. As George Carlin said, "It's a big club, and you ain't in it." You are not in the big club of virtual counterfeiters. And that is a problem for everyone who is not, since they can buy politicians but we can't.
I always made enough money to feel comfortable, realizing that this would be true only so long as my health held out, and paid various tax rates from the lowest to the highest. Taxes never changed my life. My conclusion from this experience was that taxes are never too high unless wages are too low. It is the same with inflation, which used to be called the high cost of living. The problem is not that prices are too high, the problem is that you are not paid enough. (A good put-down from those days: "He can't afford the cost of high living.")
A friend my age who came from Israel in the 1970's said that at one time inflation had been so high there that people got salary hikes almost every pay day. No need to ask. They paid their bills quickly, and tried to save by buying tangible goods and land, but it didn't really matter because "their money" kept pace with the cost of living.
The reason employers urge us to hate taxes is because they pay them, not us. The lower our tax burden, the less our employers need to pay to get us to show up. But when taxes are cut, then municipal services go to hell, and we do pay the real cost of that.
what is the estimated annual cost of tax (avoidance and) compliance policy?
depends, and i've seen it ranging between 250 billion to 1 trillion dollars
point being it is a massive waste of valuable resources (time and money)
there is a massive bureaucracy/industry built around this nuttery too (and it is a huge influential political/voting bloc)
some countries have a very simple policy, like a card with 8 to 12 lines
we should move toward that type of filing
I wholeheartedly agree it should be simplified. There are myriad reasons it currently is not. I would like to raise one of those, which applies not just to taxes. I call it the obsession of “catching the cheaters.” We do this to the point of diminishing returns. There was a time when I represented clients who were on welfare. The “catch the cheater” focus inherent in those systems resulted in many layers of bureaucracy, way past any point of necessity.
ok, but just so you know, i don't even agree with me, but i might agree with you agreeing with me
Islander's semi-annual taxation rant, circa 2021, Pandemic edition!
Well we are getting a heft refund this year. Not the way I like to do it, but sheesh planning is hard with everything else going on. Add in the vagaries of the PPP loans and some tax credit stuff and some leftover expenses and stupid tax policies that really shouldn't exist, and I just couldn't dial it in very well.
Looking back, I think this sums it up pretty well:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
islander wrote:
We are spending time and $'s to give them a number that they already have.
I thought I was the only one who thought this way. Even just calculating my withholding is a couple of orders more difficult/wrong than it should be. I (and apparently half of America) have zero idea whether I withheld enough, too much, or will have to pay more this year.
It really shouldn't be this hard.
what is the estimated annual cost of tax (avoidance and) compliance policy?
depends, and i've seen it ranging between 250 billion to 1 trillion dollars
point being it is a massive waste of valuable resources (time and money)
there is a massive bureaucracy/industry built around this nuttery too (and it is a huge influential political/voting bloc)
some countries have a very simple policy, like a card with 8 to 12 lines
we should move toward that type of filing
I wholeheartedly agree it should be simplified. There are myriad reasons it currently is not. I would like to raise one of those, which applies not just to taxes. I call it the obsession of âcatching the cheaters.â We do this to the point of diminishing returns. There was a time when I represented clients who were on welfare. The âcatch the cheaterâ focus inherent in those systems resulted in many layers of bureaucracy, way past any point of necessity.
There is also the concept of treat people like cheats and they will be cheats. Treat them like responsible adults and ... well they will cheat less. As a manager I got a lot more out of my people when I left them to their own devices and assumed they would get it done instead of assuming they were out goofing off.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Apr 9, 2021 - 3:09pm
miamizsun wrote:
islander wrote:
Islander's semi-annual taxation rant, circa 2021, Pandemic edition!
Well we are getting a heft refund this year. Not the way I like to do it, but sheesh planning is hard with everything else going on. Add in the vagaries of the PPP loans and some tax credit stuff and some leftover expenses and stupid tax policies that really shouldn't exist, and I just couldn't dial it in very well.
Looking back, I think this sums it up pretty well:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
islander wrote:
We are spending time and $'s to give them a number that they already have.
I thought I was the only one who thought this way. Even just calculating my withholding is a couple of orders more difficult/wrong than it should be. I (and apparently half of America) have zero idea whether I withheld enough, too much, or will have to pay more this year.
It really shouldn't be this hard.
what is the estimated annual cost of tax (avoidance and) compliance policy?
depends, and i've seen it ranging between 250 billion to 1 trillion dollars
point being it is a massive waste of valuable resources (time and money)
there is a massive bureaucracy/industry built around this nuttery too (and it is a huge influential political/voting bloc)
some countries have a very simple policy, like a card with 8 to 12 lines
we should move toward that type of filing
I wholeheartedly agree it should be simplified. There are myriad reasons it currently is not. I would like to raise one of those, which applies not just to taxes. I call it the obsession of âcatching the cheaters.â We do this to the point of diminishing returns. There was a time when I represented clients who were on welfare. The âcatch the cheaterâ focus inherent in those systems resulted in many layers of bureaucracy, way past any point of necessity.
Location: Really deep in the heart of South California Gender:
Posted:
Apr 9, 2021 - 2:58pm
BlueHeronDruid wrote:
islander wrote:
Islander's semi-annual taxation rant, circa 2021, Pandemic edition!
Well we are getting a heft refund this year. Not the way I like to do it, but sheesh planning is hard with everything else going on. Add in the vagaries of the PPP loans and some tax credit stuff and some leftover expenses and stupid tax policies that really shouldn't exist, and I just couldn't dial it in very well.
<snip> It really shouldn't be this hard.
Drawing both SS and retirement funds, along with hobbitt's consulting on a 1099 for 5 months, left us in a different situation this year. IOW, we (I) screwed up.
But I had the over $6k to pay the IRS, so there's that.
