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black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 11:02am

 steeler wrote:

I agree that we need to break out of the 2-party death waltz.

As for Supreme Court Justices:  The great majority of the folk who sound off on this have little or no idea what they are talking about in terms of the work of the Justices, the Constitution, and the role of the Supreme Court in interpreting the Constitution.  This issue has been demagogued to death, not just during this election cycle but for many years now.  It pisses me off that the selection of Supreme Court Justices has  become so politicized, and that bodes ill for our form of government as set forth in the Constitution and envisioned by the Founders.  Most jurisprudential giants of the Supreme Court would have no chance of surviving the nomination process and getting on the Court today.  I think that says it all.  The ridiculous GOP Senate position over Garland's nomination — that they have no obligation to even consider his nomination and that they want the public to have a chance to weigh in on the selection of Scalia's successor via the November election — is a political maneuver that runs contrary to the Constitution's attempt to immunize the Justices from the political winds by giving them life tenure.     *rant over*     

 



 
Any insight?  I'm not smart enough to know exactly why it matters if a judge is conservative or liberal, other than the obvious political issues like abortion and gun control, which I feel are low on the totem pole of relevance. 
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 10:58am

 black321 wrote:

The court issue is a legitimate argument to go republican.   But does it justify the means? 
Are most folks smart enough to know how good or bad each candidate is?  They should be, if they spent as much time analyzing the facts as they do analyzing Sunday football games.  That's a problem with our culture.
I personally don't think Clinton is as kind hearted as you appear to paint her, but also not much worse than your average politician.  But this isn't just about the facts.  Emotions are involved as well.  To a die hard republican, how do they vote democratic, let alone for someone like Clinton?  And many people just don't like her.  How many democrats would have been able to swallow if the choice was GW against a democratic version of Trump?  (Actually, at this point, GW doesn't look all that bad).  That's a problem of our reliance on the two parties.  I'm not part of a party, and I urged my kids not to become dem/repub.  Perhaps that's the best start to us moving away from the two parties. 

 
A quick glance at FB commentary (a separate level of hell in itself) shows that folks can't really think of this as anything more complex than a high school football "we're great and you suck" sort of thing. The nuances are completely lost on a huge number of people. (Insert my usual "bottom half of the bell curve votes" rant here.)

For instance, on a post about Lena Dunham wearing a costume mocking Trump, here're some of the responses:
Kevin Quinn You look much better with the costume on you hag.
Angela Bruno She's disgusting.
Linda Miles SICK BITCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ruby Begonia we don't want her
Al Vega Hopefully she will be moving to Canada after next Tuesday!
 
  And, most likely, these folks will steer the direction of a complex and powerful nation with their vote. So, mobilizing folks into a third party - that's based on thoughtfulness about international relations, complex financial decisions, a long term educational and infrastructure plan, and - despite all that - a winning smile...I can't help but be despondent.

But, we're watching the GOP destroy itself regardless. I posted years ago "Welcome to the end of the GOP. Pull up a chair." I thought it was about hyper religious insistence, or the ludicrous tax pledge, but it's Trump.
Will the GOP splinter off into a reasonable faction - behaving like the party used to be? I suspect that's up to them, but their success, like it or not, will be decided by how the media decides to cover them. And that will be decided by Rupert Murdoch. 


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 10:44am

 black321 wrote:

The court issue is a legitimate argument to go republican.   But does it justify the means? 
Are most folks smart enough to know how good or bad each candidate is?  They should be, if they spent as much time analyzing the facts as they do analyzing Sunday football games.  That's a problem with our culture.
I personally don't think Clinton is as kind hearted as you appear to paint her, but also not much worse than your average politician.  But this isn't just about the facts.  Emotions are involved as well.  To a die hard republican, how do they vote democratic, let alone for someone like Clinton?  And many people just don't like her.  How many democrats would have been able to swallow if the choice was GW against a democratic version of Trump?  (Actually, at this point, GW doesn't look all that bad).  That's a problem of our reliance on the two parties.  I'm not part of a party, and I urged my kids not to become dem/repub.  Perhaps that's the best start to us moving away from the two parties. 

 
I agree that we need to break out of the 2-party death waltz.

As for Supreme Court Justices:  The great majority of the folk who sound off on this have little or no idea what they are talking about in terms of the work of the Justices, the Constitution, and the role of the Supreme Court in interpreting the Constitution.  This issue has been demagogued to death, not just during this election cycle but for many years now.  It pisses me off that the selection of Supreme Court Justices has  become so politicized, and that bodes ill for our form of government as set forth in the Constitution and envisioned by the Founders.  Most jurisprudential giants of the Supreme Court would have no chance of surviving the nomination process and getting on the Court today.  I think that says it all.  The ridiculous GOP Senate position over Garland's nomination — that they have no obligation to even consider his nomination and that they want the public to have a chance to weigh in on the selection of Scalia's successor via the November election — is a political maneuver that runs contrary to the Constitution's attempt to immunize the Justices from the political winds by giving them life tenure.     *rant over*     

 


black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 10:11am

 Steely_D wrote:

I think that convincing people of that is the only hope of the GOP if they want someone in office to pick Supreme Court justices. They can't convince people that Trump is good, so they have to say that Hillary's bad - and not just bad and not Michael Jackson Bad but "'biggest liar ever" BAD. And that's clearly been the strategy.

They aren't the same, by any means. Although a politician and presumably well paid, her decades of experience are in the arena of "helping." She makes money from it, but it's a life that's by definition about trying to positively influence others. Successful or not - it's a completely different mindset than selling gold-plated hotel rooms or steaks. They are not the same and saying it just means that folks have listened to, and been influenced by, the talking points of the competition. Objectively, they are not the same. 

 
The court issue is a legitimate argument to go republican.   But does it justify the means? 
Are most folks smart enough to know how good or bad each candidate is?  They should be, if they spent as much time analyzing the facts as they do analyzing Sunday football games.  That's a problem with our culture.
I personally don't think Clinton is as kind hearted as you appear to paint her, but also not much worse than your average politician.  But this isn't just about the facts.  Emotions are involved as well.  To a die hard republican, how do they vote democratic, let alone for someone like Clinton?  And many people just don't like her.  How many democrats would have been able to swallow if the choice was GW against a democratic version of Trump?  (Actually, at this point, GW doesn't look all that bad).  That's a problem of our reliance on the two parties.  I'm not part of a party, and I urged my kids not to become dem/repub.  Perhaps that's the best start to us moving away from the two parties. 
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 10:08am


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 9:24am

 black321 wrote:

In terms of the magnitude or impact of their mistakes, I would agree...but only because of her role as first lady, senator, secretary of state.  I wouldn't want to take the risk of seeing the "magnitude" of Trump's mistakes as a public figure.  I think they are two sides of the same coin, narcissistic, ego maniacs...but Clinton has more control of her personality, and willing at the very least to pretend to do the right thing, or play the game.

 
I think that convincing people of that is the only hope of the GOP if they want someone in office to pick Supreme Court justices. They can't convince people that Trump is good, so they have to say that Hillary's bad - and not just bad and not Michael Jackson Bad but "'biggest liar ever" BAD. And that's clearly been the strategy.

They aren't the same, by any means. Although a politician and presumably well paid, her decades of experience are in the arena of "helping." She makes money from it, but it's a life that's by definition about trying to positively influence others. Successful or not - it's a completely different mindset than selling gold-plated hotel rooms or steaks. They are not the same and saying it just means that folks have listened to, and been influenced by, the talking points of the competition. Objectively, they are not the same. 
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 8:25am

 black321 wrote:

In terms of the magnitude or impact of their mistakes, I would agree...but only because of her role as first lady, senator, secretary of state.  I wouldn't want to take the risk of seeing the "magnitude" of Trump's mistakes as a public figure.  I think they are two sides of the same coin, narcissistic, ego maniacs...but Clinton has more control of her personality, and willing at the very least to pretend to do the right thing, or play the game.

 




I think this is a fair and accurate assessment.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 7:39am

 kurtster wrote:
No matter how horrible you may think Trump is,  Clinton is several orders of magnitude worse.
That is our choice.


 
In terms of the magnitude or impact of their mistakes, I would agree...but only because of her role as first lady, senator, secretary of state.  I wouldn't want to take the risk of seeing the "magnitude" of Trump's mistakes as a public figure.  I think they are two sides of the same coin, narcissistic, ego maniacs...but Clinton has more control of her personality, and willing at the very least to pretend to do the right thing, or play the game.
K_Love

K_Love Avatar

Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 5:35am

 Steely_D wrote:

No, that's false. There's a frothiness about lying and so forth that doesn't need rehashing here, but it's not true that she's worse than he. It's just not and saying it doesn't make it true. That seems to be the method: repeat lies enough until people just capitulate. (Obama's a Muslim...30% of the USA still believes that crap.)

The thing that could sway voters to him is that they want to put someone in the highest office in the land, the most powerful seat in the world - who's never held public office, cheated on his wives, been a financial failure, admitted to ripping off his business associates, promoted the ludicrous birther movement, began his campaign with racist inflammatory comments, made boldface lies about his opinion regarding going to war, incited violence at his rallies.

Hillary has clearly done bad things, too - but within the context of more than two decades of experience in public office including the White House. If you want to think they're both bad, that's fine - but at least she's bad while knowing the playing field. Trump is going to be learning the ropes for a very long time, and doesn't seem to be the kinda guy that makes good snap decisions in the interim. 

 

bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 2, 2016 - 4:20am

 BlueHeronDruid wrote:

Why. Is. This. Even. An. Issue. Hofuk King Stupid have we become?

 
After 2012,I'd say we've become all of the stupid but maybe I'm wrong and it could get worse.I expect the JayZ/Beyonce ticket in 2032.

BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: Заебани сме луѓе


Posted: Nov 1, 2016 - 11:33pm

 Steely_D wrote:

No, that's false. There's a frothiness about lying and so forth that doesn't need rehashing here, but it's not true that she's worse than he. It's just not and saying it doesn't make it true. That seems to be the method: repeat lies enough until people just capitulate. (Obama's a Muslim...30% of the USA still believes that crap.)

The thing that could sway voters to him is that they want to put someone in the highest office in the land, the most powerful seat in the world - who's never held public office, cheated on his wives, been a financial failure, admitted to ripping off his business associates, promoted the ludicrous birther movement, began his campaign with racist inflammatory comments, made boldface lies about his opinion regarding going to war, incited violence at his rallies.

Hillary has clearly done bad things, too - but within the context of more than two decades of experience in public office including the White House. If you want to think they're both bad, that's fine - but at least she's bad while knowing the playing field. Trump is going to be learning the ropes for a very long time, and doesn't seem to be the kinda guy that makes good snap decisions in the interim. 

 
Why. Is. This. Even. An. Issue. Hofuk King Stupid have we become?
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 1, 2016 - 7:27pm

 kurtster wrote:
No matter how horrible you may think Trump is,  Clinton is several orders of magnitude worse.
That is our choice.
 
No, that's false. There's a frothiness about lying and so forth that doesn't need rehashing here, but it's not true that she's worse than he. It's just not and saying it doesn't make it true. That seems to be the method: repeat lies enough until people just capitulate. (Obama's a Muslim...30% of the USA still believes that crap.)

The thing that could sway voters to him is that they want to put someone in the highest office in the land, the most powerful seat in the world - who's never held public office, cheated on his wives, been a financial failure, admitted to ripping off his business associates, promoted the ludicrous birther movement, began his campaign with racist inflammatory comments, made boldface lies about his opinion regarding going to war, incited violence at his rallies.

Hillary has clearly done bad things, too - but within the context of more than two decades of experience in public office including the White House. If you want to think they're both bad, that's fine - but at least she's bad while knowing the playing field. Trump is going to be learning the ropes for a very long time, and doesn't seem to be the kinda guy that makes good snap decisions in the interim. 


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 1, 2016 - 6:11pm

No matter how horrible you may think Trump is,  Clinton is several orders of magnitude worse.
That is our choice.



ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 1, 2016 - 11:12am


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 21, 2016 - 12:18am

"Hillary is pretending she doesn't hate Catholics..."

{#Frown} 
Rod

Rod Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2016 - 8:55pm

 haresfur wrote:

{#Lol} "Lolita? Look, it was her idea. And I can understand that because women love me, even if they are girls. And she wasn't my daughter. But I just talked about her. Hey, I can write a great novel."

 
Catch 22? Sure, it was a tremendous catch, the best maybe, who knows, but 22 times? That's too many catches, folks, way too many catches.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2016 - 3:16pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 
{#Lol} "Lolita? Look, it was her idea. And I can understand that because women love me, even if they are girls. And she wasn't my daughter. But I just talked about her. Hey, I can write a great novel."
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2016 - 9:06am


aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2016 - 8:43am

 kurtster wrote:
It seems we are on the same page when it is all said and done.

 
Wait, was that some sort of internet type joke??


Kaw

Kaw Avatar

Location: Just above sea level
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2016 - 7:51am

 oldviolin wrote:

Maybe it's the perspective that's askew; the thoughts, the language, the projections... Maybe people need courage rather than frustration, brotherhood rather than self righteousness, humility rather than victimization...Think?

 
Noble, but maybe not the most implementable sollution in this case.
I would start with different strategies for both teams. Less dirt throwing and more respect for each other. I think then the people would see the candidates less as dirty enemies and more as valid choices for presidenty.
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