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Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: Owl Creek Bridge
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 1:12pm

 VV wrote:

In line with the GOP? You didn't know what his policies were, the GOP didn't know what his policies were and even Trump didn't know what his policies were until he "used his gut" to decide them on-the-fly. Sure we know that he wanted to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it and replace Obamacare and work on Infrastructure but those aren't policies as much as goals.

Why do reasonable people support him? I don't know that many "reasonable" people do. I think that Trump was big "f*ck you" perpetrated by people who felt disenfranchised and just wanted to rock the boat in the biggest way possible. And they got their wish. Now if you ask those same people how Trump has improved their situation I doubt you would find many (if any) who felt he had but in the end all those people really wanted was a sh*tshow anyway and Trump more than delivered on that. Sure Trump is an a**hole as Bill Barr has articulated, but loyalists close ranks around him because he's their a**hole and woe be it to any outsider to state the obvious.  




Trumpism is now an actual cult. If he says drink the kool aid his followers would say how much, sir. 

Cultural anthropologist Paul Stoller thinks Trump masterfully employed the fundamentals of celebrity culture-glitz, illusion and fantasy to construct a shared alternate reality where lies become truth and reality's resistance to one's own dreams are overcome by the right attitude and bold self-confidence.<206> Trump's father indoctrinated his children from an early age into the sort of positive thinking approach to reality advocated by the family's pastor Norman Vincent Peale.<207> Trump boasted that Peale considered him the greatest student of his philosophy that regards facts as not important, because positive attitudes will instead cause what you "image" to materialize.<208> Trump biographer Gwenda Blair thinks Trump took Peale's self-help philosophy and "weaponized it".<209>
Robert Jay Lifton, a scholar of psychohistory and authority on the nature of cults, emphasizes the importance of understanding Trumpism "as an assault on reality". A leader has more power if he is in any part successful at making truth irrelevant to his followers.<210> Trump biographer Timothy L. O'Brien agrees, stating: "It is a core operating principle of Trumpism. If you constantly attack objective reality, you are left as the only trustworthy source of information, which is one of his goals for his relationship with his supporters—that they should believe no one else but him."<211> Lifton believes Trump is a purveyor of a solipsistic reality<212> which is hostile to facts and is made collective by amplifying frustrations and fears held by his community of zealous believers. Social psychologists refer to this as collective narcissism, a commonly held and strong emotional investment in the idea that one's group has a special status in society. It is often accompanied by chronic expressions of intolerance towards out-groups, intergroup aggression and frequent expressions of group victimhood whenever the in-group feels threatened by perceived criticisms or lack of proper respect for the in-group.<213> Identity of group members is closely tied to the collective identity expressed by its leader,<214> motivating multiple studies to examine its relationship to authoritarian movements. Collective narcissism measures have been shown to be a powerful predictor of membership in such movements including Trump's


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 1:00pm

 black321 wrote:
Why do so many, reasonable, good people still support him? They aren't all lunatic fringe...I think they like the easy answers to what are hard problems everyone else is kicking down the road.

"Obama's talking about all of this with the global warming and … a lot of it's a hoax. It's a hoax. I mean, it's a money-making industry, okay? It's a hoax, a lot of it."

"It's going to disappear. One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear," Trump said on February 27 (2020). "And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away," he said again on March 10.


Hard answers are often found to be unpalatable (and get ignored).
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 12:57pm

 black321 wrote:


His "policies" were in-line with the GOP, with the exception of not being a hawk, and that’s why so many GOP members jumped on his bandwagon, up until the election.

The biggest problem with his policies, and to westlopes indirect point about siding with Israel, was it was all too simple.

Was he the worst president? Maybe...but other presidents have done more harm...again, see Bush jrs. wars.

And I tend to agree with your last point...but you get the leadership you deserve.
Why do so many, reasonable, good people still support him? They aren't all lunatic fringe...I think they like the easy answers to what are hard problems everyone else is kicking down the road.


In line with the GOP? You didn't know what his policies were, the GOP didn't know what his policies were and even Trump didn't know what his policies were until he "used his gut" to decide them on-the-fly. Sure we know that he wanted to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it and replace Obamacare and work on Infrastructure but those aren't policies as much as goals. If you also recall reporters tried to pin him down on his platform for reelection and he couldn't articulate it. Does that sound like someone who is policy-driven? 

Why do reasonable people support him? I don't know that many "reasonable" people do. I think that Trump was big "f*ck you" perpetrated by people who felt disenfranchised and just wanted to rock the boat in the biggest way possible. And they got their wish. Now if you ask those same people how Trump has improved their situation I doubt you would find many (if any) who felt he had but in the end all those people really wanted was a sh*tshow anyway and Trump more than delivered on that. Sure Trump is an a**hole as Bill Barr has articulated, but loyalists close ranks around him because he's their a**hole and woe be it to any outsider to state the obvious.  



black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 12:19pm

 westslope wrote:

That has been going on since not too long after the dawn of the age of nuclear weapons.   Be thankful.  Insecurity driven by uncertainty about intentions could lead to a first strike decision and that could lead to a situation where many American adults would die many within minutes, weeks or months after the first strike. 

Want to avoid this situation?  Make some effort to avoid electing a bigoted, mouthy thug like Donald J. Trump in the future.  

Think hard about the consequences and risks of supporting the Israeli regional monopoly on nuclear weapon, and how that decision can lead to more nuclear weapons proliferation not less.   Question the "right" of the culturally superior (Israel, USA) to kill and take in the context of a modern post-information technology world.   The return on violent colonialism is no longer guaranteed to be positive.  



On a military flight today, Milley told reporters: “These are routine calls in order to discuss issues of the day, to reassure both allies and adversaries in this case, in order to ensure strategic stability.

“And these are perfectly within the duties and responsibilities of the chairman.”

Trump and his supporters have lashed out over the reported calls, accusing the general of treasonous behaviour. Biden has said Milley retains his “great confidence” as the most senior US general.

On his flight, to Athens on Nato business, Milley told reporters he would be glad to testify about the calls, as he is due to do in the Senate on 28 September.

“I will go into any level of detail Congress wants to go into,” he said.

Here’s another take:

https://www.theguardian.com/co...

General Milley cannot undermine civilian authority. The US is not a military junta

Lt Col Daniel L Davis (ret)


That alone should be grounds for immediate dismissal. No US military officer can seize authority from the president and call the commanding general of our greatest global rival and tell that general that he’ll be given advance warning of military action ordered by the president. Such an act is dangerously close to treason, as Senator Marco Rubio and others have noted. But Milley deserves to be relieved of duty for far more than this one act of insubordination.





black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 10:11am

 VV wrote:

Trump's biggest failures were his divisiveness and his policies... and his inability to understand how government works and his incompetence at the job and oh yeah... let's not forget the attempted insurrection and the immeasurable damage on people's perception of the election process inflicted by his baseless "stolen election" lie. I could also add his incapability to properly handle the COVID crisis. These all fall under the umbrella of policies. You want to talk about his failure to recognize global warming as a severe critical global issue? He started with the scrubbing of all mentions of global warming on government environmental websites (EPA) when he assumed office. In addition to being prolific liar he was a science denier when the science didn't support his position or lies.

Let's understand this.... "Trump" is in a league of his own and then there are the rest of the presidents. No other president's performance, policies... ect. will ever come close to Trump's failures no matter how hard you twist yourself in knots trying to establish even the most "paper-thinnest" false equivalency.

Also, I don't think most people necessarily "bought into the chaos" as that chaos was not yet on full display before he was elected the first time and I would venture to guess was a good part of the reason he was not re-elected for a second term. 

You want to say America has been in decline since 9/11?... I probably won't argue that but will say without any hesitancy that Trump accelerated that decline while in office more than anyone else has or likely ever will.  


His "policies" were in-line with the GOP, with the exception of not being a hawk, and that’s why so many GOP members jumped on his bandwagon, up until the election.

The biggest problem with his policies, and to westlopes indirect point about siding with Israel, was it was all too simple.

Was he the worst president? Maybe...but other presidents have done more harm...again, see Bush jrs. wars. 

And I tend to agree with your last point...but you get the leadership you deserve.
Why do so many, reasonable, good people still support him? They aren't all lunatic fringe...I think they like the easy answers to what are hard problems everyone else is kicking down the road. 


VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 9:49am

 black321 wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree...and as i stated, Trump's biggest failures wasn't necessarily his policies, but how he fostered and fed the divisiveness.
But ultimately, it was the Americans (us) who bought into the chaos...on both sides.


p.s., sure, our post WWII foreign policy hasn't been particularly favorable.
But domestically, Reagan figured a way out of the economic disaster of the 70s, and Clinton reinvested those dividends, while balancing the budget. 
We were never perfect, but always "evolving" towards that ideal. 
That stopped 20 y.a. on 9/11. (maybe politically the seeds were sown with the relentless pursuit and impeachment of Clinton during his 2nd term).
Fear took over, and since then we haven't been able to figure out a way back to that rocky,  crooked path towards the ideal. 
Can anyone honestly argue we are a better country now, then on 9/10/01?



Trump's biggest failures were his divisiveness and his policies... and his inability to understand how government works and his incompetence at the job and oh yeah... let's not forget the attempted insurrection and the immeasurable damage on people's perception of the election process inflicted by his baseless "stolen election" lie. I could also add his incapability to properly handle the COVID crisis. These all fall under the umbrella of policies. You want to talk about his failure to recognize global warming as a severe critical global issue? He started with the scrubbing of all mentions of global warming on government environmental websites (EPA) when he assumed office. In addition to being prolific liar he was a science denier when the science didn't support his position or lies.

Let's understand this.... "Trump" is in a league of his own and then there are the rest of the presidents. No other president's performance, policies... ect. will ever come close to Trump's failures no matter how hard you twist yourself in knots trying to establish even the most "paper-thinnest" false equivalency.

Also, I don't think most people necessarily "bought into the chaos" as that chaos was not yet on full display before he was elected the first time and I would venture to guess was a good part of the reason he was not re-elected for a second term. 

You want to say America has been in decline since 9/11?... I probably won't argue that but will say without any hesitancy that Trump accelerated that decline while in office more than anyone else has or likely ever will.  

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 9:37am

 westslope wrote:

That has been going on since not too long after the dawn of the age of nuclear weapons. 
 Be thankful.  Insecurity driven by uncertainty about intentions could lead to a first strike decision and that could lead to a situation where many American adults would die many within minutes, weeks or months after the first strike. 

Think hard about the consequences and risks of supporting the Israeli regional monopoly on nuclear weapon, and how that decision can lead to more nuclear weapons proliferation not less.  

You might be right?
Yes, it's a tricky game, full of traps, and no easy answers (ala trump).


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 8:36am

 black321 wrote:


Doesnt really explain why Gen Milley would call our biggest adversary, to warn them about an attack? Seems queer.

That has been going on since not too long after the dawn of the age of nuclear weapons.   Be thankful.  Insecurity driven by uncertainty about intentions could lead to a first strike decision and that could lead to a situation where many American adults would die many within minutes, weeks or months after the first strike. 

Want to avoid this situation?  Make some effort to avoid electing a bigoted, mouthy thug like Donald J. Trump in the future.  

Think hard about the consequences and risks of supporting the Israeli regional monopoly on nuclear weapon, and how that decision can lead to more nuclear weapons proliferation not less.   Question the "right" of the culturally superior (Israel, USA) to kill and take in the context of a modern post-information technology world.   The return on violent colonialism is no longer guaranteed to be positive.  

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 7:21am

 Steely_D wrote:


That’s a different topic: imperialism and the misguided Manifest Destiny of the USA. We’ve been disillusioned since the Vietnam war and Watergate, so that’s a lot longer than twenty years.
The former guy, by his own boast, was not a politician. He was a (failed) businessman and reality TV show personality. From a businessman’s perspective, was it proper to put someone in a job for which they had absolutely, unequivocally no qualifications? Of course not. That was Stupid.
So, during his four years, the delicate political machinery was, as planned, thrown into chaos. That allowed our enemies to take advantage of us.

Imagine you’re a Russian, hoping to hobble your enemy. Do you fire rockets, send a sub, threaten on TV, or some other sort of overt maneuver? Not if you understand politics. You do it quietly, through social media lies. You tell people that the vaccine that prevents disease has a chip in it, that masks don’t work, that it’s all about taking away your “freedom”…
and then you stand back and watch more than 600,000 Americans die without you doing more than typing.

They do it to themselves. Glorious!

I don't necessarily disagree...and as i stated, Trump's biggest failures wasn't necessarily his policies, but how he fostered and fed the divisiveness.
But ultimately, it was the Americans (us) who bought into the chaos...on both sides.


p.s., sure, our post WWII foreign policy hasn't been particularly favorable.
But domestically, Reagan figured a way out of the economic disaster of the 70s, and Clinton reinvested those dividends, while balancing the budget. 
We were never perfect, but always "evolving" towards that ideal. 
That stopped 20 y.a. on 9/11. (maybe politically the seeds were sown with the relentless pursuit and impeachment of Clinton during his 2nd term).
Fear took over, and since then we haven't been able to figure out a way back to that rocky,  crooked path towards the ideal. 
Can anyone honestly argue we are a better country now, then on 9/10/01?


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 6:46am

 Steely_D wrote:


America’s enemies have figured out that they can hurt more people through social media and disinformation than they could through a direct weapon attack. The former guy bought into the lies, tried (naively) to befriend our enemies, and alienated our allies. A man without political savvy was thrown into the complexities of international high-level politics and totally fucked everything up, because he was skill-less.
He - for some reason - did not repudiate racism, and that allowed that the small portion of our nation that espoused it to rise, multiply, and actually have a seat at the table with the grownups.
And now, in that chaos, our nation’s enemies have sewn disinformation that divides our nation, prevents its protection against a pandemic. 


Well stated.

There has been long-lasting damage inflicted by the Trump administration. His supporters attempt to minimize it by consistently characterizing the opposition as focusing solely on his abrasive personality. It was much, much, much more than that — and much, much, much worse, as you have noted.


black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 6:28am

 VV wrote:


Yea, unfortunately you got it wrong. Swing and a miss.


So we were, and now are again in good shape?
Country is now heading in the right direction?
Nothing to see here, keep moving along?

I know you're a funny, quick witted fella, but please take a moment and actually try to understand my comment. 
Don't interpret what i've said as some sort of trump apologist comment; e.g., I don't like his demeanor, but I agree with his policies...tripe. Because his policies did not move the country forward...and not so much worse than his predecessors.
Arguably, bush jr. did more harm to the world order, despite appearing to be a nice fella.

Biden talks nicer, most of the time, and that does matter quite a bit for a leader,
but where is the new admin's program to at least attempt to address our underlying issues? 
$1t spent a few months ago, but where did the $ go?
Of course millions did need the $, but so much waste, and fraud.
Retail sales at historic levels...more appliances, boats, and of course guns...
Retail sales, that's the holy grail of any administration over the last 20 years.

Another $3.5T, because you know, the pandemic...and the best you will see from that is a maybe a few new outfits, and a few less potholes.

We are blowing our inheritance, and that of our children.

Might be going to hell in a bucket, but at least we're enjoying the ride.

Sorry, don't mean to rant...maybe miami can chime in now, with his perpetual sense of optimism and search for solutions...he seems to be the only one on this board with any real sense.



miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 5:16am

 rgio wrote:
 miamizsun wrote:
is/was trump (insert political figurehead here) possibly a symptom of mass derangement/agitprop?
seems some have to check the giant tribal windsock in the sky before pointing their social pitchforks

Yes.  Trump isn't about politics, it's more akin to religion.  It is pure tribal.  Tell everyone you know who is to blame for their misery, and make sure that all roads lead back to your opponent.  You can do anything in pursuit of victory, and if you have enough backers, nobody will hold you accountable for fear of retribution.  The population is sad, lonely, exhausted, and scared.  Even the people around them don't understand them...but those folks on their phone "get" them.   That racist, sexist, politically correct, activist person online says all the things I'd say if I wasn't scared of upsetting everyone.  I'm not alone. We have stopped looking for solutions.  Instead, we evaluate every detail, isolate the ones we don't like and ignore anything that might support the opposition.  No alternative solution is required... just destroy their suggestion and you win.  Ask Mitch McConnell.  4 years ago the debt ceiling was immaterial and tax cuts would create utopia.  Today, the debt ceiling is on the edge of darkness.  His team all forget what they supported before, and will line up to protect democracy, the constitution, and the American dream in support of today's position.  Just like they did for the last one 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Sadly, a windsock is a very appropriate metaphor.
 

i know and i can agree

sometimes i feel like i've taken both the red pill and the blue pill

and that i see the buffoonery coming out of both major tribes

it's just weird...

miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 5:07am

 black321 wrote:
Yeah and the two guys before him, and the other one after did/are doing such a great job leading the world, spreading democracy, and peace?  

trump sucked, mostly because of his divisiveness,  but lets not delude ourselves what we had before or now was sooo much better. 

the politics of the last 20 years has been deplorable....leading to the massive distrust people have in not just our leadership, but d institutions.  

 

i was going to say that credibility and intellectual honesty are necessary ingredients for trust

trust is paramount, especially at a leadership level

and that lack of understanding and or poor communication leads to the imagination filling in the blanks

but i'm just going to keep all of that to myself
rgio

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Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 5:00am

 miamizsun wrote:


is/was trump (insert political figurehead here) possibly a symptom of mass derangement/agitprop?
seems some have to check the giant tribal windsock in the sky before pointing their social pitchforks


Yes.  Trump isn't about politics, it's more akin to religion.  It is pure tribal.  Tell everyone you know who is to blame for their misery, and make sure that all roads lead back to your opponent.  You can do anything in pursuit of victory, and if you have enough backers, nobody will hold you accountable for fear of retribution. 

The population is sad, lonely, exhausted, and scared.  Even the people around them don't understand them...but those folks on their phone "get" them.   That racist, sexist, politically correct, activist person online says all the things I'd say if I wasn't scared of upsetting everyone.  I'm not alone.

We have stopped looking for solutions.  Instead, we evaluate every detail, isolate the ones we don't like and ignore anything that might support the opposition.  No alternative solution is required... just destroy their suggestion and you win.  Ask Mitch McConnell.  4 years ago the debt ceiling was immaterial and tax cuts would create utopia.  Today, the debt ceiling is on the edge of darkness.  His team all forget what they supported before, and will line up to protect democracy, the constitution, and the American dream in support of today's position.  Just like they did for the last one 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

Sadly, a windsock is a very appropriate metaphor.

VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 4:39am

 black321 wrote:


Yeah and the two guys before him, and the other one after did/are doing such a great job leading the world, spreading democracy, and peace?  

trump sucked, mostly because of his divisiveness,  but lets not delude ourselves what we had before or now was sooo much better. 

the politics of the last 20 years has been deplorable....leading to the massive distrust people have in not just our leadership, but d institutions.  



Yea, unfortunately you got it wrong. Swing and a miss.
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 2:21am

 black321 wrote:


Yeah and the two guys before him, and the other one after did/are doing such a great job leading the world, spreading democracy, and peace?  

trump sucked, mostly because of his divisiveness,  but lets not delude ourselves what we had before or now was sooo much better. 

the politics of the last 20 years has been deplorable....leading to the massive distrust people have in not just our leadership, but d institutions.  



That’s a different topic: imperialism and the misguided Manifest Destiny of the USA. We’ve been disillusioned since the Vietnam war and Watergate, so that’s a lot longer than twenty years.
The former guy, by his own boast, was not a politician. He was a (failed) businessman and reality TV show personality. From a businessman’s perspective, was it proper to put someone in a job for which they had absolutely, unequivocally no qualifications? Of course not. That was Stupid.
So, during his four years, the delicate political machinery was, as planned, thrown into chaos. That allowed our enemies to take advantage of us.

Imagine you’re a Russian, hoping to hobble your enemy. Do you fire rockets, send a sub, threaten on TV, or some other sort of overt maneuver? Not if you understand politics. You do it quietly, through social media lies. You tell people that the vaccine that prevents disease has a chip in it, that masks don’t work, that it’s all about taking away your “freedom”…
and then you stand back and watch more than 600,000 Americans die without you doing more than typing.

They do it to themselves. Glorious!
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 9:30pm

 Steely_D wrote:


America’s enemies have figured out that they can hurt more people through social media and disinformation than they could through a direct weapon attack. The former guy bought into the lies, tried (naively) to befriend our enemies, and alienated our allies. A man without political savvy was thrown into the complexities of international high-level politics and totally fucked everything up, because he was skill-less.
He - for some reason - did not repudiate racism, and that allowed that the small portion of our nation that espoused it to rise, multiply, and actually have a seat at the table with the grownups.
And now, in that chaos, our nation’s enemies have sewn disinformation that divides our nation, prevents its protection against a pandemic. 


Yeah and the two guys before him, and the other one after did/are doing such a great job leading the world, spreading democracy, and peace?  

trump sucked, mostly because of his divisiveness,  but lets not delude ourselves what we had before or now was sooo much better. 

the politics of the last 20 years has been deplorable....leading to the massive distrust people have in not just our leadership, but d institutions.  

Red_Dragon

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Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 5:21pm

 Steely_D wrote:


America’s enemies have figured out that they can hurt more people through social media and disinformation than they could through a direct weapon attack. The former guy bought into the lies, tried (naively) to befriend our enemies, and alienated our allies. A man without political savvy was thrown into the complexities of international high-level politics and totally fucked everything up, because he was skill-less.
He - for some reason - did not repudiate racism, and that allowed that the small portion of our nation that espoused it to rise, multiply, and actually have a seat at the table with the grownups.
And now, in that chaos, our nation’s enemies have sewn disinformation that divides our nation, prevents its protection against a pandemic. 


+1
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 5:01pm

 miamizsun wrote:


is/was trump (insert political figurehead here) possibly a symptom of mass derangement/agitprop?
seems some have to check the giant tribal windsock in the sky before pointing their social pitchforks



disclaimer: i'm just a guy on the internet


America’s enemies have figured out that they can hurt more people through social media and disinformation than they could through a direct weapon attack. The former guy bought into the lies, tried (naively) to befriend our enemies, and alienated our allies. A man without political savvy was thrown into the complexities of international high-level politics and totally fucked everything up, because he was skill-less.
He - for some reason - did not repudiate racism, and that allowed that the small portion of our nation that espoused it to rise, multiply, and actually have a seat at the table with the grownups.
And now, in that chaos, our nation’s enemies have sewn disinformation that divides our nation, prevents its protection against a pandemic. 
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 5:16am

 Steely_D wrote:

So the former guy got vaccinated, even pushed through the vaccine (Warp Speed), but his acolytes won’t get the shot. 
Not even he’s part of the movement named after him at this point.



is/was trump (insert political figurehead here) possibly a symptom of mass derangement/agitprop?
seems some have to check the giant tribal windsock in the sky before pointing their social pitchforks



disclaimer: i'm just a guy on the internet
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