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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 17, 2022 - 12:12am

 haresfur wrote:
 westslope wrote:


kurtster wrote:
...... The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State. The rest is easy after that.
......
That is incorrect.  That description does not even accurately describe the former Soviet Union.  

How about the left-wing Marxists in Latin America?   Most are Roman Catholic.  Liberation theology as espoused by radical, socially engaged priests is an important building block in the ELN, the National Liberation Army operating in Colombia and Venezuela.  

The concern with popular ideological stereotypes is that they may lead to more violent conflict not less.  


kurtster is confusing socialism with Henry VIII. Easy mistake to make.

 
Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this, but I did not forget.

I will repeat, ... the primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State

And yes, it does accurately describe the USSR, up to Gorbachev.  Things did change when Gorbachev took over at the end of the 80's, but before Gorby, things were very, very different.  Churches and their private properties were confiscated and the public display of religious icons prohibited. Formal religious services prohibited.  And much much more.  I do not know on what basis or information you have as proof of otherwise.

You are correct about some Latin American Marxists, but they are the exception to the rule.

I became aware of Marxism and all it encompasses back in the very early 60's when a colony moved to Berkeley from Princeton and established their foothold on the west coast and opened up their food cooperative as a base and to finance their agenda.  Before then organized colonies only existed in places like Boston and as noted Princeton, no thanks to Woodrow Wilson, once POTUS and a noted racist I might add.

The supposition I make above about the goal of replacing God with the State is what I learned way back then in the 60's.  This is not a recent conclusion on my part.  Material Atheism is the religion promoted by Marxists and Communist States such as the USSR and China.  Yes, this was in my front yard and awareness from my preteen years going forward.  Obviously not even a thought by most Americans in the rest of the country, let alone children, but that awareness was part of my childhood.  Even worse is that this is obviously breaking news to you and many others at this point in time based upon the remarks directed at me so far in this thread.

The Twin Pines logo of the food coop I have seen since that time in the early 60's.



Here are two wiki pages that support my position.  Read them and get back to me on this if any further discussion on this subject interests you.

Marxist–Leninist atheism

Soviet anti-religious legislation


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 28, 2021 - 6:42am

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 28, 2021 - 12:10am

 haresfur wrote:
 westslope wrote:


kurtster wrote:
...... The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State. The rest is easy after that.
......
That is incorrect.  That description does not even accurately describe the former Soviet Union.  

How about the left-wing Marxists in Latin America?   Most are Roman Catholic.  Liberation theology as espoused by radical, socially engaged priests is an important building block in the ELN, the National Liberation Army operating in Colombia and Venezuela.  

The concern with popular ideological stereotypes is that they may lead to more violent conflict not less.  


kurtster is confusing socialism with Henry VIII. Easy mistake to make.

 
Yeah, uh huh. 

I'll have a reply to both of you subsequently, don't worry.  Got a plate full o shit to deal with before I can get serious on this, which certainly warrants that.

Meanwhile settle for this ...
.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 28, 2021 - 12:07am

 Isabeau wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

...Worship the State, not God.  The State is the Creator of everything you need including all the answers to your questions.  Simply acknowledging God is not even allowed.

...We are now being trained to tolerate these same things here in this country.  The Pandemic provides cover for this.  The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State.  


God? Whose God? Your God? The invisible old white guy in the sky thang?
Would you kill me if my God was portrayed differently, was called something different and I practiced different rituals than you?
Wouldn't none of that matter if it resulted in kindness and good character?
So why is the right so afraid of female power and different religions?
Why so-called believers in the Prince of Peace place fear over faith and compelled to carry weapons?

 
Izzy !  Long time no see.

Really ?  If not God, then how about just The Creator, what ever it happens to be ?  A higher power, whatever floats yer boat.  

"God" in my original statement should be taken as a metaphor, not one particular god versus another one.

So it is either The State is The Creator of all that life graces us with or there is another Creator out there.

Just to be clear, I do not participate in any organized religion, nor have I since Jr high school.  I consider myself spiritual and I am open to the concept of Intelligent Design at the very least. 

I've said this here many times before ... Back in the late 60's I saw a Rabbi on The Mike Douglas Show who offered his summation of things, to wit ... God created earth and man created religion.  He had me at Hello on that and it has been the perspective I have carried forth ever since.

I also believe in the Founding as designed where government (The State) serves the people.  Not the other way around where people serve the government, which is the goal of Socialism.

ymwv ...
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 27, 2021 - 11:26pm

 westslope wrote:


kurtster wrote:
...... The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State. The rest is easy after that.
......


That is incorrect.  That description does not even accurately describe the former Soviet Union.  

How about the left-wing Marxists in Latin America?   Most are Roman Catholic.  Liberation theology as espoused by radical, socially engaged priests is an important building block in the ELN, the National Liberation Army operating in Colombia and Venezuela.  

The concern with popular ideological stereotypes is that they may lead to more violent conflict not less.  


kurtster is confusing socialism with Henry VIII. Easy mistake to make.

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 27, 2021 - 10:52pm

 kurtster wrote:

...Worship the State, not God.  The State is the Creator of everything you need including all the answers to your questions.  Simply acknowledging God is not even allowed.

...We are now being trained to tolerate these same things here in this country.  The Pandemic provides cover for this.  The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State.  


God? Whose God? Your God? The invisible old white guy in the sky thang?
Would you kill me if my God was portrayed differently, was called something different and I practiced different rituals than you?
Wouldn't none of that matter if it resulted in kindness and good character?
So why is the right so afraid of female power and different religions?
Why so-called believers in the Prince of Peace place fear over faith and compelled to carry weapons?



Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 27, 2021 - 10:21pm

The Slaughter of the Crusades.
The Horrors of both French and Spanish Inquisitions.
150 years of Protestants and Catholics taking turns burning each other. Over Ritual.
300+ years of 'witch' burning and 'spectral evidence.'

The most heinous acts perpetrated against mankind has been done in the name of Religion.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Dec 26, 2021 - 1:55pm

 kurtster wrote:

...... The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State.  The rest is easy after that.
......

That is incorrect.  That description does not even accurately describe the former Soviet Union.  

How about the left-wing Marxists in Latin America?   Most are Roman Catholic.  Liberation theology as espoused by radical, socially engaged priests is an important building block in the ELN, the National Liberation Army operating in Colombia and Venezuela.  

The concern with popular ideological stereotypes is that they may lead to more violent conflict not less.  

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Dec 24, 2021 - 9:44am

 black321 wrote:
to keep it "fair and balanced" there is also this: 

"a Trump supporter dons a red MAGA hat."

... and fervently longs for a second coming.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 24, 2021 - 9:22am

Fill the hole

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 24, 2021 - 9:19am

 kurtster wrote:

This was as far as I needed to go.  Seen this movie before.  Worship the State, not God.  The State is the Creator of everything you need including all the answers to your questions.  Simply acknowledging God is not even allowed.

This was the USSR in my lifetime and memory.  Funny how long people seemed to tolerate lines for toilet paper and bread.  They were just happy to be able to get some.  The height of their day to day expectations.  We are now being trained to tolerate these same things here in this country.  The Pandemic provides cover for this.  The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State.  The rest is easy after that.

ymwv ...


to keep it "fair and balanced" there is also this: 

"a Trump supporter dons a red MAGA hat."

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 24, 2021 - 5:11am

 kurtster wrote:

This was as far as I needed to go.  Seen this movie before.  Worship the State, not God.  The State is the Creator of everything you need including all the answers to your questions.  Simply acknowledging God is not even allowed.

This was the USSR in my lifetime and memory.  Funny how long people seemed to tolerate lines for toilet paper and bread.  They were just happy to be able to get some.  The height of their day to day expectations.  We are now being trained to tolerate these same things here in this country.  The Pandemic provides cover for this.  The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State.  The rest is easy after that.

ymwv ...

What's amazing is you know what's coming (ie...this is as far as I need to go), and you pivot away to blame the left for replacing God with State.   Well played.

Georgia (that's the state, not the country) September 2021
Image
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 10:04pm

 coleman11721 wrote:

Do Young Americans Have ‘a God-Shaped Hole’?

Students ponder religion in light of Pascal’s metaphor.

Dec. 21, 2021 6:49 pm ETSAVESHARETEXT209



...

The woke have adopted all the hallmarks of religion, from rituals of recognizing privilege, crafting new language, and proselytizing the holy truth to which all must conform or face eternal damnation.

Pascal was right—we all desire God, and my contemporaries have filled the void in themselves with political movements and tweets.

—Joshua Pearson, George Mason University, international security

...

 
This was as far as I needed to go.  Seen this movie before.  Worship the State, not God.  The State is the Creator of everything you need including all the answers to your questions.  Simply acknowledging God is not even allowed.

This was the USSR in my lifetime and memory.  Funny how long people seemed to tolerate lines for toilet paper and bread.  They were just happy to be able to get some.  The height of their day to day expectations.  We are now being trained to tolerate these same things here in this country.  The Pandemic provides cover for this.  The primary goal of Socialism is to replace God with the State.  The rest is easy after that.

ymwv ...
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 8:11pm

 Steely_D wrote:
 oldviolin wrote:

American youth have not turned away from the divine. They have merely filled that hole with something new. The routine that past generations followed, flocking to their places of worship or turning to Scripture for guidance, is now fulfilled by following Instagram idols and retweeting their posts.
but that IS literally turning away from the divine
 
Aha! A true believer! I knew it...
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 12:16pm

"... in jede Lücke hatten sie ihren Wahn gestellt, ihren Lückenbüßer, den sie Gott nannten."
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 12:06pm

 Steely_D wrote:


but that IS literally turning away from the divine

Agreed.

Seeing your shrink or therapist weekly or bi-weekly might substitute for similar help that might have come once upon a time from clergy but "divine" it is not.  

"Celebrity narcissism" — no matter how popular — is not divine. 

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 10:53am

 oldviolin wrote:



American youth have not turned away from the divine. They have merely filled that hole with something new. The routine that past generations followed, flocking to their places of worship or turning to Scripture for guidance, is now fulfilled by following Instagram idols and retweeting their posts.



but that IS literally turning away from the divine
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 9:30am

 oldviolin wrote:



American youth have not turned away from the divine. They have merely filled that hole with something new. The routine that past generations followed, flocking to their places of worship or turning to Scripture for guidance, is now fulfilled by following Instagram idols and retweeting their posts.

and so we go...
but
I think a lot about these things. My left ear drones, my right ear rings
I try to say what is in my heart; not only my keeping, it lives apart
To where the air is fresh,  burns nostrils, brings tears 
And the mirth, like unto birth, fills assurance and music into my years

To believe takes practice, it's true.
To know takes the knowledge of experience.; that thing that we get for ourselves from each other.
Ultimately, paraphrasing Christ, or the words attributed to him, we are responsible for each other, and the proceeding time will reflect our according decisions up
to a very fine point somewhere near or far in the future, where other things and spaces proceed. Do we need proof to extend a warm reach? Don't we have it?
Is there a ghost? Are we already ghosts? Our children will decide based on their and our experiences. Spiritual evolution is progressing. Right along with the sciences of our evolving understanding of our earth; our world; our nothingness...



oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 23, 2021 - 8:19am

 coleman11721 wrote:

Do Young Americans Have ‘a God-Shaped Hole’?




American youth have not turned away from the divine. They have merely filled that hole with something new. The routine that past generations followed, flocking to their places of worship or turning to Scripture for guidance, is now fulfilled by following Instagram idols and retweeting their posts.

and so we go...
but
I think a lot about these things. My left ear drones, my right ear rings
I try to say what is in my heart; not only my keeping, it lives apart
To where the air is fresh,  burns nostrils, brings tears 
And the mirth, like unto birth, fills assurance and music into my years

To believe takes practice, it's true.
To know takes the knowledge of experience.; that thing that we get for ourselves from each other.
Ultimately, paraphrasing Christ, or the words attributed to him, we are responsible for each other, and the proceeding time will reflect our according decisions up
to a very fine point somewhere near or far in the future, where other things and spaces proceed. Do we need proof to extend a warm reach? Don't we have it?
Is there a ghost? Are we already ghosts? Our children will decide based on their and our experiences. Spiritual evolution is progressing. Right along with the sciences of our evolving understanding of our earth; our world; our nothingness...
coleman11721



Posted: Dec 22, 2021 - 12:31pm

Do Young Americans Have ‘a God-Shaped Hole’?

Students ponder religion in light of Pascal’s metaphor.

Dec. 21, 2021 6:49 pm ETSAVESHARETEXT209

Blaise Pascal stands with the mother superior and two notaries at the reading of the contract ensuring his sister’s keep at an abbey.

PHOTO: CULTURE CLUB/GETTY IMAGES
Listen to articleLength7 minutesQueue

Editor’s note: In this Future View, students discuss religion in light of Pascal’s idea that all people have a God-shaped hole. Next week we’ll ask, “Surveys suggest that nearly half of young Americans use dating apps. How has the computer revolution shaped what we think about romance and love?” Students should click here to submit opinions of fewer than 250 words before Dec. 28. The best responses will be published that night.

The New God of Politics and Tweets

American youth have not turned away from the divine. They have merely filled that hole with something new. The routine that past generations followed, flocking to their places of worship or turning to Scripture for guidance, is now fulfilled by following Instagram idols and retweeting their posts.

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This new religion is most evident in those who adopt the mannerisms and markers of a political movement. Like Jewish males wearing their yarmulkes, a Trump supporter dons a red MAGA hat. Meanwhile, progressives sport their Nalgene bottle with stickers claiming that “Water Is a Right” or some other statement to broadcast that they are on the right side of history. The woke have adopted all the hallmarks of religion, from rituals of recognizing privilege, crafting new language, and proselytizing the holy truth to which all must conform or face eternal damnation.

Pascal was right—we all desire God, and my contemporaries have filled the void in themselves with political movements and tweets.

—Joshua Pearson, George Mason University, international security

Religion Makes Human Connections

Religion creates small, close-knit communities. These communities provide connections—friends, mentors, even romantic partners. Religious communities also give members a sense of belonging and impart a shared set of morals. Congregants help one another in times of prosperity and turn to one another for help in times of need, creating a safety net. In short, religion provides social capital.

Religion does not have a monopoly on social capital, and our generation could find some secular analogues. But by turning away from religion without some other community to take its place, we risk making the country more divided at a dangerous point in our history.

By turning away from religion, we are not so much missing a part of ourselves as we are missing parts of one another. What we lose is not God, but the better angels of our communal nature. We find on the altar of secularization not a diminished inner spirituality, but the dissolution of ties with our common kindred.

—Max Willner-Giwerc, University of Chicago, law (J.D.)

The Reasonableness of Secularism

Blaise Pascal’s ideas ought to be understood in the context of the 1600s. As a highly educated French mathematician and mystical philosopher, he was exposed to realities that Americans don’t experience. France originated in principles that relied on an understanding of God. In the 1600s, it was rare to encounter someone with a secular mindset.

Applying Pascal’s claim of a God-shaped hole to young Americans today would be to reduce the identity of an entire population to a missing part. This would be a rash injustice to those young Americans with a secular viewpoint, who grew up in an areligious world.

Modern politics rejects the proposition of gospel truth. Truth simply no longer exists. Arguments are easily reduced to the phrase “You do you.” In many ways, technology has replaced God. Mysteries of the universe are no longer attributed to a divine figure. An American turn away from religion is reasonably warranted.

—Isabella Barrett, Belmont Abbey College, politics, philosophy and economics

Our Search for Meaning

When we invite God into our lives, we realize that the world doesn’t revolve around us. Life is centered on serving God through generous acts of love for other people. The reason that Meta appeals to so many is because it’s a world where everything is under the user’s control. There’s no such thing as suffering in a metaverse, a fake world. My generation has been taught to avoid suffering at all costs, but to quote Viktor Frankl, “If there is a meaning in life at all, then there must be a meaning in suffering.”

The trials and sorrows of everyday life can make sense only if we have faith that God will not abandon us. If we don’t hold firm to this, we will live in a constant state of anxiety and resentment. If we do hold firm to this, suffering will have meaning, and life can be joyful. Not easy, but joyful.

—Nathaniel Valyo, Seton Hall University, economics

Spirituality and Politics

Young Americans are turning away from religious institutions, but they remain invested in spiritual matters. According to Pew Research, a growing number of young Americans identify as “spiritual but not religious.” I think that secularism is actually weakened when people see their faith as coming from outside established institutions. It’s relatively easy to put a fence between organized religion and government, but much harder to separate politics from spirit. I predict the boundaries between faith and politics will blur, rather than solidify, in the coming years.

—Thomas Brodey, Amherst College, history

The Impulse of Religion

Increased secularization might have changed our behavior, but it has not curbed our urge to worship something, even if that something is ourselves. In an increasingly secular society, Americans have lost many of the healthy outlets they once had. Religion has always been a way for people to claim an identity, build community and create purpose for their lives. Without these outlets forcing them to look outward, Americans have become steadily more self-absorbed. This phenomenon is only encouraged by social media, which convinces people that self-expression should be their priority.

Religion gives meaning to human lives, which otherwise can feel purposeless. Despite cultural changes and waning religious affiliations, human nature has not fundamentally changed. All people still long to be loved and to feel as though their lives are meaningful. Young, nonreligious Americans continue to search for purpose and identity. They try to find them in gyms and therapist’s offices and places of work. The fervor with which young Americans do all this can be described only as religious.

Although they are less likely to be found in a synagogue or church, they are not less likely to have these religious impulses. People still seek forgiveness for their wrongdoings, and they pursue anything that seems as though it will make them feel significant.

—Ivy Young, University of North Carolina, journalism

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