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ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 4:34pm

 haresfur wrote:
... dodgy people won't carry their guns around unless they are planning to use them and won't blow someone away just because they get into and argument in the bar.


A lot of schools etc. are posted as "gun-free zones" and the 2A people get upset because they want to be a hero in the grade school. Now we have legislation going thru so maybe if I see someone carrying a pistol into the kindergarten, I have to ignore it and hope that's a good guy with a gun. Before, any gun was reason to sound the alarm, no questions asked. Good job, 2A people!

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 4:25pm

 kurtster wrote:

Arrests are being made, but there is little follow through with prosecutions anymore.  Sentences with any meaningful incarceration are shrinking, thus reducing the incentive to not commit crimes in the first place.

We used to have a mantra of don't do the crime if you can't do the time.  Now there is no time to worry about anymore if you are caught.


Those arrested for murder almost always are prosecuted and, if convicted, are sentenced to meaningful periods of incarceration. 

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 4:13pm

 Lazy8 wrote:

No, you only hear about them within our borders. Only something really spectacular (like the Bataclan shooting that killed 130 in Paris, or the Charlie Hebdo shooting that killed 12, or Anders Breivik's rampage in Norway that killed 77) or with strong political overtones makes the news here if it happens overseas.

I bet you didn't hear about the shootings of Kurdish activists in Paris last year. Or the Copenhagen mall shooting. Or Oslo. Or several in Canada. Or the many in Russia.

You don't hear about them because our media is pretty parochial, but also because it doesn't fit the narrative.

No one has found an answer to stopping a determined spree killer. If you're willing (or eager) to die for your grievance a thick book of laws isn't going to stop you. Hell, the former Prime Minister of Japan was murdered with a homemade hand-cannon last year. Every aspect of that act was illegal.

The last two mass casualty shootings were in California, a place where most of the gun control wish-list is law, but similar things happen in Chicago or D.C. every weekend. Gang bangers shoot up those streets with impunity. They're already murdering people, and murdering people has always been against the law.


Most of my media is not US based and I do hear about many of these. Americans seem to be absolutist, "Oh see something happened in a country with stricter gun laws so gun laws don't work and are useless." The fact is that you can minimise these events. 

So, a few years back, there was a terrorist hostage taking in Sydney Australia. The hostage taker had a shotgun. I believe it was one that could hold no more than two shells, because that's the law (don't quote me on the exact details. And it is a legitimate area for discussion imo because there are reasons to have better tools in the rural areas). Anyway three people died. The gunman shot one. The gunman was another. And one was killed by the police who went in with overpowered weapons for the situation and their bullets were flying around everywhere. You could say the gun laws didn't prevent the attack but they did minimise the deaths.

Laws against murder don't prevent murder except by societal pressure of after the fact consequences. Restricting access to guns won't get rid of them completely but has a couple of really beneficial effects that aren't often mentioned. "If having a gun is criminal then only criminals will have guns." Ok, now we have a way to arrest them rather than waiting until after the event. And that means, among other things that dodgy people won't carry their guns around unless they are planning to use them and won't blow someone away just because they get into and argument in the bar.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 4:07pm

Jazz hands
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 3:33pm

 islander wrote:
I don't want an easy answer. I want an answer. Yes these events are rare, but they are still devastating. And the point that you keep missing is that they only occur within our borders.   Sure it's not easy, but nearly every other civilized society on the planet has found an answer. Why can't we?

No, you only hear about them within our borders. Only something really spectacular (like the Bataclan shooting that killed 130 in Paris, or the Charlie Hebdo shooting that killed 12, or Anders Breivik's rampage in Norway that killed 77) or with strong political overtones makes the news here if it happens overseas.

I bet you didn't hear about the shootings of Kurdish activists in Paris last year. Or the Copenhagen mall shooting. Or Oslo. Or several in Canada. Or the many in Russia.

You don't hear about them because our media is pretty parochial, but also because it doesn't fit the narrative.

No one has found an answer to stopping a determined spree killer. If you're willing (or eager) to die for your grievance a thick book of laws isn't going to stop you. Hell, the former Prime Minister of Japan was murdered with a homemade hand-cannon last year. Every aspect of that act was illegal.

The last two mass casualty shootings were in California, a place where most of the gun control wish-list is law, but similar things happen in Chicago or D.C. every weekend. Gang bangers shoot up those streets with impunity. They're already murdering people, and murdering people has always been against the law.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 12:27pm

 westslope wrote:


Hypocrisy... Agreed ....

Interesting priorities.  The same anti-abortion activists are not challenging the murder of innocent civilians by the US state or Israeli kill ratios.  


You're not wrong about priorities.  The Right is not pro-life...they are pro-birth.  Once you're here...you're on your own (unless you have to cross a border...then stay where you are).

The abortion and gun debates started the polarization, and have subsequently removed all sense of empathy, critical thinking, and even an understanding of personal safety (people are much more likely to die in "pro-gun", no abortion states).

The only priority is tribal victory.  The US system these days provides far too much influence for the fringes while minimizing the interests of those who don't really see themselves in a tribe.  It's insane.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 11:44am

 Isabeau wrote:

Still waiting for that "March For Life" to visit NRA offices. 
Embryos without fully developed hearts, lungs, brain or limbs must be protected because they are potential...

but those already formed and infused with that 'breath,' or dare we say it, 'soul?',  are abandoned to the almighty U.S. Constitutional Second amendment. It essentially dominates all the rest in its evolving interpretation and incarnations. 1900's saw a deadly connection between guns and alcohol and made laws accordingly, to ensure settler's kids weren't shot up on the way to the schoolhouse. Tommy Guns were banned after the slaughter of the 30's. 
The utter hypocrisy over anyone without training or license can open-carry (here in TX!), but controlling the internal organs of American Women while claiming to love 'life' is a degradation of the U.S. Constitution. 

This is a blatant backlash over some men feeling emasculated by the modern direction of society, particularly women.  This is cowboy, phallic dominance in all its historical glory.
You gentlemen can split hairs over law, opinion, personal definitions, political agendas, etc. 
But can we at least admit the glaring SELECTIVE MORALITY here? 



Hypocrisy... Agreed. Though it seems that many anti-Pro Choice advocates are indeed women. Women can be awfully conservative. Women can feel threatened by unencumbered women.

The core problem here is one of differing visions of what constitutes a person. Whether the vision reflects just the here and now or does the vision reflect an entire lifetime. From the womb to the cradle to the grave. The fundamentalists just see the womb or baby in front of them. They do not see a challenging entry into a world where the economy is increasingly dominated by information technology. In this world, human capital and social capital are far more important than endurance, speed and strength.

To be successful, parents have to heavily invest in their children: education, broader socialization, life skills. All this is easier with fewer children; all this is far easier when the children are planned or at least wanted.

In the meantime, God has gifted social conservatives and others with Freedom guns and Opioids.   Almost as many Americans off themselves on an annual basis as the total number of American soldiers who died during the entire Vietnam War.    After thoroughly trashing the Temple of the Soul,  American Christians and others can spend the last couple of decades of their lives addicted to perscribed opioids.  

Interesting priorities.  The same anti-abortion activists are not challenging the murder of innocent civilians by the US state or Israeli kill ratios.  


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 10:33am


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 9:31am

 Lazy8 wrote:

If you wanted an easy answer...we've tried all that. There aren't easy answers, not that work. This is a hard problem and will require creativity and the cooperation of people and institutions resistant to change.

But we'll probably just pass another law and congratulate ourselves.


I don't want an easy answer. I want an answer. Yes these events are rare, but they are still devastating. And the point that you keep missing is that they only occur within our borders.   Sure it's not easy, but nearly every other civilized society on the planet has found an answer. Why can't we?

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 8:57am

 kurtster wrote:

Thanks for giving a predictable response.  You are not a woman though and cannot speak for one.  However you may identify as one ... so there is that.

I do look forward to Isabeau's response if she offers one.  I meant the question seriously.

I appreciate that in Kurtspeak - predictable = factual, and we know how you dislike them.  As for me...

As someone who had a Division 1 athletic scholarship (taking it from my pre-defined gender pool so as not to upset you)  Guilty as charged.....


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 7:51am

 rgio wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Since you decided to jack this thread, let me ask you a question related to your concerns regarding rights for biological women. So how do you feel about the usurping of Title 9 women's sports by transgender biological men ?  Is this fair to the biological women competing ?  Competing for things like scholarships ?  Is this not another way that men are keeping women down as you rail about so often ?

More people have died this week in California from mass shootings than will compete in college this year as transgender athletes.  Many of them are trans men, who are "stealing" opportunities from men.   Many of them are in non-scholarship sports.   You can count on your fingers the number of trans-women competing.  For the record...Lia Thomas did not receive a swimming scholarship. The house is on fire, and you're fixated that someone left the porch light on.
 
Thanks for giving a predictable response.  You are not a woman though and cannot speak for one.  However you may identify as one ... so there is that.

I do look forward to Isabeau's response if she offers one.  I meant the question seriously.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 7:14am

 islander wrote:
Outside of this last weekend, California is actually fairly low on the shootings per person scale:


Notable too, that CA has some very restrictive gun laws.

Hard to know how to interpret this data when the definition of "mass shooting" is so...flexible, but the scale on the Y axis tells us something: these events are extraordinarily rare.

Yes, you keep hearing about them. They're news, in part because they're so rare and in part because our media wants to make sure that drum gets beaten. But events like this are still rare, both in objective terms and as a fraction of all homicides. Even as a fraction of all firearms homicides. And when policy and law (which affect real people every day) get made around extraordinary events the policy tends to cause more harm than good. The burden of proof that the policy actually accomplishes what it sets out to do and that the benefits outweigh the harms is on those proposing the policy. 

This graph, for instance, would have you think that Vermont is a terrifying place, South Carolina and West Virginia likewise. Lots of guns, lots of mass shootings. In reality Vermont's murder rate is among the lowest in the country,—by firearm or otherwise.  West Virginia's murder rate is almost identical to California's. Put Washington DC on that chart and it shoots to the top.

Look at the data along the X axis. North Dakota, Alabama, New Hampshire, and Alaska seem to have it figured out—lots of guns, zero mass shootings. For the most part this reflects reality, but South Carolina and Alaska's murder rates by firearm are in the top 5 nationwide.

What this tells someone familiar with statistics is that the correlation you're looking for isn't there. 
I'll concede that laws aren't the answer here, we need a fundamental shift in our society. But I don't think we are going to get that.  So as usual, I ask those that insist on no new gun laws: "what are your solutions to what is clearly a US issue".

Indeed, laws aren't the answer, but it's the one knob those in power can turn right away. Like cranking down the tap in the sink when the roof's gone and it's raining.

What has to change is culture. We need to make people understand that actions have consequences, that violence hurts. We also need to make it easier and more attractive to seek mental health care, to make communities that don't isolate people to stew in their grievances. Schools and parents that take bullying seriously. Serious attempts at legal and policy reform to make our cities less corrupt, and to earn trust in institutions like the law as a way to settle disputes rather than enforce a social order.

If you wanted an easy answer...we've tried all that. There aren't easy answers, not that work. This is a hard problem and will require creativity and the cooperation of people and institutions resistant to change.

But we'll probably just pass another law and congratulate ourselves.

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2023 - 5:16am

 kurtster wrote:

Since you decided to jack this thread, let me ask you a question related to your concerns regarding rights for biological women.

So how do you feel about the usurping of Title 9 women's sports by transgender biological men ?  Is this fair to the biological women competing ?  Competing for things like scholarships ?  Is this not another way that men are keeping women down as you rail about so often ?

More people have died this week in California from mass shootings than will compete in college this year as transgender athletes.  Many of them are trans men, who are "stealing" opportunities from men.   Many of them are in non-scholarship sports.   You can count on your fingers the number of trans-women competing.  For the record...Lia Thomas did not receive a swimming scholarship.

The house is on fire, and you're fixated that someone left the porch light on.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 8:43pm

 Isabeau wrote:

You gentlemen can split hairs over law, opinion, personal definitions, political agendas, etc. 
But can we at least admit the glaring SELECTIVE MORALITY here?
 
Since you decided to jack this thread, let me ask you a question related to your concerns regarding rights for biological women.

So how do you feel about the usurping of Title 9 women's sports by transgender biological men ?  Is this fair to the biological women competing ?  Competing for things like scholarships ?  Is this not another way that men are keeping women down as you rail about so often ?
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 1:29pm

Still waiting for that "March For Life" to visit NRA offices. 
Embryos without fully developed hearts, lungs, brain or limbs must be protected because they are potential...

but those already formed and infused with that 'breath,' or dare we say it, 'soul?',  are abandoned to the almighty U.S. Constitutional Second amendment. It essentially dominates all the rest in its evolving interpretation and incarnations. 1900's saw a deadly connection between guns and alcohol and made laws accordingly, to ensure settler's kids weren't shot up on the way to the schoolhouse. Tommy Guns were banned after the slaughter of the 30's. 
The utter hypocrisy over anyone without training or license can open-carry (here in TX!), but controlling the internal organs of American Women while claiming to love 'life' is a degradation of the U.S. Constitution. 

This is a blatant backlash over some men feeling emasculated by the modern direction of society, particularly women.  This is cowboy, phallic dominance in all its historical glory.
You gentlemen can split hairs over law, opinion, personal definitions, political agendas, etc. 
But can we at least admit the glaring SELECTIVE MORALITY here?



kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 12:58pm

 steeler wrote:
 Which gun laws are not being enforced? Can you give me an example or examples?
 
Arrests are being made, but there is little follow through with prosecutions anymore.  Sentences with any meaningful incarceration are shrinking, thus reducing the incentive to not commit crimes in the first place.

We used to have a mantra of don't do the crime if you can't do the time.  Now there is no time to worry about anymore if you are caught.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 12:48pm

 islander wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Laws only work if they are enforced.  And no one seems to want to enforce laws anymore. With that, why pass more laws if they are not going to be properly enforced ?
A) I know you only pitch this as a 'nothing can be done' lament.

But CA actually does pretty good on enforcement of their fairly strict laws, and as a result they have lower per capita shootings. It's also very difficult to get access to guns across the lines in Nevada, which contributes as well.  Here's a relevant link for anyone who cares: https://calmatters.org/explain... Again, It's not just laws that will fix this, but wholesale cultural change. I think it is incumbent on those who seek 'No gun laws', to take some action. I actually do want access (limited) to (certain) firearms. I enjoy them, but I don't need them to go to the store, and honestly don't think anyone else does either. 

B) I'm fine with concealed carry, but I think if you feel you need it for 'safety' then you are making bad choices to start with and I don't trust your judgement. 
 
A) No not at all.  To me it is about uneven enforcement of laws.  I am a due process, equal protection, equal treatment guy.  The other problem with gun laws is that they only affect law the abiding.  Bad people are always gonna get guns if they want them or need them bad enough. 

B) Some people need guns because of where they live or work.  That is a simple fact.  Some people are stuck living where they do and stuck in the type of job they have.  It is not as simple as saying move to somewhere safer or get a safer job.

Yes, I agree we need a cultural shift.  However crime is rising with no cash bail becoming predominate.  As a result the general population is justifiably afraid for their safety.  Fewer crimes are being prosecuted if they even get that far anymore.  Culture is shifting in the wrong direction.  The criminals have more protection and sympathy than the victims anymore.  Stores are closing up and leaving towns again since shoplifting is not being prosecuted anymore resulting in more retail deserts that we had just got done reversing.

This is your world.  At my age, my input is irrelevant.  All that I have to offer are observations.  And no one cares to hear them and I know it.  I would just like to die of natural causes, not from lead poisoning or blunt force trauma.

Good luck.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 12:21pm

 kurtster wrote:

Laws only work if they are enforced.  And no one seems to want to enforce laws anymore.

With that, why pass more laws if they are not going to be properly enforced ?

Which gun laws are not being enforced? Can you give me an example or examples?

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 12:17pm

 islander wrote:

Again, It's not just laws that will fix this, but wholesale cultural change.

There is a sub-cultural “norm” that includes violence, threats, robbery. Note: this isn’t racial, but cultural. Frustration at having no hope of making ends meet through respectful, cooperative means. Drivers for this: low wages, unstable employment, rising costs, political disenfranchisement, mistrust of authority/protective figures, a media that promotes dissatisfaction with rules, and the internet with its bad players.

Which goes back to “who controls the narrative?” What morality leaders can convince the culture that they’re doing it wrong? The church is in the rear view mirror for many. Politicians have lost all credibility. Scientists are ridiculed for having a knowledge base.

End result: chaos, at least for a while. At some point people will tire of that, but I’d expect the thing to grow out of that to be neo-Puritanical.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 11:59am

 kurtster wrote:

Laws only work if they are enforced.  And no one seems to want to enforce laws anymore.

With that, why pass more laws if they are not going to be properly enforced ?


I know you only pitch this as a 'nothing can be done' lament. But CA actually does pretty good on enforcement of their fairly strict laws, and as a result they have lower per capita shootings. It's also very difficult to get access to guns across the lines in Nevada, which contributes as well. 

Here's a relevant link for anyone who cares: https://calmatters.org/explain...

Again, It's not just laws that will fix this, but wholesale cultural change. I think it is incumbent on those who seek 'No gun laws', to take some action. I actually do want access (limited) to (certain) firearms. I enjoy them, but I don't need them to go to the store, and honestly don't think anyone else does either.  I'm fine with concealed carry, but I think if you feel you need it for 'safety' then you are making bad choices to start with and I don't trust your judgement. 
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