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Here, I'll help you out regarding these convictions that you have a strong conviction for keeping them in the fore as much as possible.
It has long been said that you can indict a ham sandwich. What we have in this case is the conviction of the ham sandwich.
Sure. But in addition to indict, he was convicted, by a jury, on 34 (out of 34) separate counts. And we are just talking about the falsifying business records bit here, not the assault, which he was also convicted of.
Oh come on....get real. We all know what that was, and it failed, and here we are.....you lost. Because everyone else knows what that was, even if you don't. Unless you face the truth you will keep on losing for a long time. Calmly....on my way to Bilbao....
so we are clear, which selection matches your view of the situation:
a) everyone does it, so it's not really a crime b) he didn't do it (despite all the evidence that he did in fact do it) c) if trump does it, it's not a crime d) he's my guy, so I don't really care if it's a crime or not
Here, I'll help you out regarding these convictions that you have a strong conviction for keeping them in the fore as much as possible.
It has long been said that you can indict a ham sandwich. What we have in this case is the conviction of the ham sandwich.
The top 1% also own over half of Russias total wealth, an aspirational goal for orange Jesus and his apostles, who are only at one-third of the US. Plenty of room to grow.
the USA, arguably one of the longest-standing, most successful democracies in history with a GDP per capita of $65000 and a long history of checks and balances and civil liberties and the preferred destination for most of the oppressed in the world, is deciding to chuck all that out to
attack the independence of the law
defund education and dismantle its universities
ban books
let an unelected illegal immigrant from a catastrophically failed state dictate key elements of its policy
remove checks and balances
remove civil liberties
dismantle its oversight (ABC) bodies
.. the list goes on..
and basically follow the playbook of Russia, an autocratic regime that despite its vast natural resources and a population of 143 million can barely generate a GDP of $14000 per capita, putting it on a par with Mexico.
with all due respect Jiggz, I don't think you are in a position to judge that objectively. I do understand (halfway) where you are coming from (SA) and your fear that the Democrats kind of equate with the ANC..
But, in all truth, they are miles apart. The ANC was a product of apartheid (as in the polar opposite to it). Two sides of the same coin and both abysmal when measured on the yardstick of consensual politics (measured on the very low benchmark of being a system we can all halfway agree to, even if we disagree about policy).
The strength of any democratic system lies precisely in being able to tolerate the other side and wait your turn (politely, civilly) to take power when the time comes. As someone recently quipped, when it comes down to it, it appears the U.S. constitution was - after all - just a gentlemen's agreement. He was not wrong. The danger is when the robber barons (aka not gentlemen) take power and piss all over that gentlemen's agreement. That is precisely what is happening now.
You think Biden weaponised the system and was the one to destroy it? Really? If that were true, Trump would NEVER have had a chance to run again. He demonstrably broke the law on a number of occasions but to me it looks like he was given a free pass in the name of democracy (i.e. he still had strong popular support). Later historians will spend hours picking over why Biden's administration let him run again (and also failed to protect Ukraine like they promised to do under the Minsk agreements - separate issue, similar themes).
And those unelected bureaucrats you and your countryman Musk are vilifying had a long tradition of being independent and serving the country, not a party. That's actually what civil service means. I know in NZ it is associated with honour. Yet Musk is neither elected nor serving the country, but his own interests. So by his very own benchmark he should be fired.
Let's put it another way.. what are the Republicans doing to protect their opponents rights and interests? What are they doing to keep them on board and the ship of state afloat?
Looks more to me like they want to antagonise them and sink the ship. And how is that meant to be a good way to run a democracy?
Your vision of a successful state is rooted in your history (as is everyone's). But I would claim your history is an absolute outlier out there and carried in it the very seeds of its own destruction. It is not something to emulate or translate to other countries. Yet that is precisely what you and your countrymen are doing as though you were the sole arbiters of what is just and good.
btw.. a couple of fact checks.
Trump was in power during the Covid pandemic, not Biden, and Trump's handling of it was abysmal in an international comparison.
Vaccinations are one of the few moral issues where the collective takes precedence over the individual (tiny cost for the individual, massive gain for the collective), not to be equated with the abolition of civil liberties, more like a cornerstone of them
Democrats have a much better record on the deficit than Republican presidents.
I do understand (halfway) where you are coming from (SA) and your fear that the Democrats kind of equate with the ANC.. I won't argue that at all, something for me to think more deeply about. Thank you.
The strength of any democratic system lies precisely in being
able to tolerate the other side and wait your turn (politely,
civilly) to take power when the time comes. As someone recently quipped,
when it comes down to it, it appears the U.S. constitution was - after
all - just a gentlemen's agreement. He was not wrong. The danger is when
the robber barons (aka not gentlemen) take power and piss all over that
gentlemen's agreement. That is precisely what is happening now......Point taken, well said.....particularly the first sentence. I would add that the pissing all over has been going on for a long time, not just now, but because the Uniparty was in control, nothing was done or said.....it's not a new thing, just being discussed now for the first time. For years on these threads Congress and politicians in general have been unfavourably viewed. This is not new, just the media are pushing the narrative hard and so everyone has melting hair....but you make a good point overall. You think Biden weaponised the system and was the one to destroy
it? Really? If that were true, Trump would NEVER have had a chance to
run again.....
Well, he nearly didn't, did he? 3mm the other way?Again, the legacy media have been whipping and so now its the big issue. Biden has issued blanket pardons for his family...for what?
Later historians will spend hours picking over why Biden's
administration let him run again (and also failed to protect Ukraine
like they promised to do under the Minsk agreements - separate issue,
similar themes). Agreed, history will tell the story. NATO also promised not to move into territories closer to Russia but they did, to the point where, knowing that Putin has amassed men and material on the border of Ukraine, Cackler stood up in front of the Munich conference and said that Ukraine WOULD join NATO....Vlad invaded the next day. Talk about broken promises...but agreed, seperate debate.
And those unelected bureaucrats you and your countryman Musk are
vilifying had a long tradition of being independent and serving the
country, not a party....MAGA disagrees vehemently.....NZ, Aus etc may well be different, and thats how it should be. But in the US, MAGA disagrees vehemently.
Let's put it another way.. what are the Republicans doing to
protect their opponents rights and interests? What are they doing to
keep them on board and the ship of state afloat?
Looks more to me like they want to antagonise them and sink the ship. And how is that meant to be a good way to run a democracy?...I would argue that Republicans are doing what they said they would do, but time will tell. Hard to agree with you though when my perception of say, J6, is vastly different to yours and the subsequent prosecutions and sentencings were ridiculously heavy-handed. To me, a protest turned into a riot (for several reasons). To you, an insurrection by domestic terrorists.....again, I think back to SA in the 80's. It's what we did....
Your vision of a successful state is rooted in your history (as
is everyone's). But I would claim your history is an absolute outlier
out there and carried in it the very seeds of its own destruction. It is
not something to emulate or translate to other countries.....absolutely no argument from my side on the first part, but we worry that it will translate to other countries, and would like to tell everyone that it does not end well, and would not like to see it happen anywhere else.
Trump was in power during the Covid pandemic, not Biden, and Trump's handling of it was abysmal in an international comparison....both were in power and pretty much like everywhere else in the world, abysmally handled everywhere.....unelected beaureaucrats dictating policy.
TBH, if Messrs. Fauci, Gates et al walked into my hotel room here I would gladly gnaw my way through their jugulars with my buggered, blunt 61 year old teeth.
I don't think Dems have a real handle on the resentment and disgruntlement that people not of the laptop class, not employed by big corporates or federal or state entities...the people who shower after work not before work....who do actual work with their hands and with tools, outside in the elements, are still holding.
It's the biggest crime against humanity ever perpetrated, IMHO.
I can't see how I will ever meet equitably with someone who is still wearing a mask alone in their car, because the Rona.
There is a huge gap between those who got stimmies, worked from home if at all for full pay...and those who got fucked royally without a word of support or understanding from the credentialled class.
A massive gap.
You have no idea how yuuge!...:)
I regularly hear about the desire for retribution, revenge.....as I sit here I can feel the anger, rage...growing again.
And from the majority of people here on RP?
'Sorry for you, suck it up, because we all snorted the fear porn and feel justified, you cooky conspiracy theorist, white supremacist patriarchal nazi!'
I stop now.....because fuck you! Not you, personally....but you get my drift I think.....there is a real, seething rage.
Deep breaths.....wait for justice.
Vaccinations are one of the few moral issues where the collective takes
precedence over the individual (tiny cost for the individual, massive
gain for the collective), not to be equated with the abolition of civil
liberties, more like a cornerstone of them....I don't know you, brother...lets say I love you, as an unknown person but as a universal brother, and so.....so lets not go there yet.....too soon.
I appreciate the back and forth....I am off to a gallery.
G'morning!
I would respond with, and this from my point of view...
the law seems to have lost its independence and become weaponised under Biden...see fascism, dictatorship, socialism etc etc
education lost the plot of educating and became a way to propagandise kids and in the process, cause harm to families and the idea of nationhood...see fascism, socialism etc etc...
no difference to unelected beaureaucrats anywhere else that dictate policy seemingly in a bid to create a failed state...see socialism, etc etc etc....
remove civil liberties like lockdowns, forced vaccinations without informed consent, mask mandates etc etc etc?
perhaps dismantle existing oversight that has clearly failed to perform its function...see 2 trillion dollar deficits, 36 trillion dollar debt increasing by a trillion every 100 days, unfettered mass immigration...and hopefully replace with oversight that performs better. Hopefully...
indeed...the list goes on.
Bilbao is interesting but pissing rain.....
with all due respect Jiggz, I don't think you are in a position to judge that objectively. I do understand (halfway) where you are coming from (SA) and your fear that the Democrats kind of equate with the ANC..
But, in all truth, they are miles apart. The ANC was a product of apartheid (as in the polar opposite to it). Two sides of the same coin and both abysmal when measured on the yardstick of consensual politics (measured on the very low benchmark of being a system we can all halfway agree to, even if we disagree about policy).
The strength of any democratic system lies precisely in being able to tolerate the other side and wait your turn (politely, civilly) to take power when the time comes. As someone recently quipped, when it comes down to it, it appears the U.S. constitution was - after all - just a gentlemen's agreement. He was not wrong. The danger is when the robber barons (aka not gentlemen) take power and piss all over that gentlemen's agreement. That is precisely what is happening now.
You think Biden weaponised the system and was the one to destroy it? Really? If that were true, Trump would NEVER have had a chance to run again. He demonstrably broke the law on a number of occasions but to me it looks like he was given a free pass in the name of democracy (i.e. he still had strong popular support). Later historians will spend hours picking over why Biden's administration let him run again (and also failed to protect Ukraine like they promised to do under the Minsk agreements - separate issue, similar themes).
And those unelected bureaucrats you and your countryman Musk are vilifying had a long tradition of being independent and serving the country, not a party. That's actually what civil service means. I know in NZ it is associated with honour. Yet Musk is neither elected nor serving the country, but his own interests. So by his very own benchmark he should be fired.
Let's put it another way.. what are the Republicans doing to protect their opponents rights and interests? What are they doing to keep them on board and the ship of state afloat?
Looks more to me like they want to antagonise them and sink the ship. And how is that meant to be a good way to run a democracy?
Your vision of a successful state is rooted in your history (as is everyone's). But I would claim your history is an absolute outlier out there and carried in it the very seeds of its own destruction. It is not something to emulate or translate to other countries. Yet that is precisely what you and your countrymen are doing as though you were the sole arbiters of what is just and good.
btw.. a couple of fact checks.
Trump was in power during the Covid pandemic, not Biden, and Trump's handling of it was abysmal in an international comparison.
Vaccinations are one of the few moral issues where the collective takes precedence over the individual (tiny cost for the individual, massive gain for the collective), not to be equated with the abolition of civil liberties, more like a cornerstone of them
Democrats have a much better record on the deficit than Republican presidents.
the USA, arguably one of the longest-standing, most successful democracies in history with a GDP per capita of $65000 and a long history of checks and balances and civil liberties and the preferred destination for most of the oppressed in the world, is deciding to chuck all that out to
attack the independence of the law
defund education and dismantle its universities
ban books
let an unelected illegal immigrant from a catastrophically failed state dictate key elements of its policy
remove checks and balances
remove civil liberties
dismantle its oversight (ABC) bodies
.. the list goes on..
and basically follow the playbook of Russia, an autocratic regime that despite its vast natural resources and a population of 143 million can barely generate a GDP of $14000 per capita, putting it on a par with Mexico.
Did I get that right?
G'morning!
I would respond with, and this from my point of view...
the law seems to have lost its independence and become weaponised under Biden...see fascism, dictatorship, socialism etc etc
education lost the plot of educating and became a way to propagandise kids and in the process, cause harm to families and the idea of nationhood...see fascism, socialism etc etc...
no difference to unelected beaureaucrats anywhere else that dictate policy seemingly in a bid to create a failed state...see socialism, etc etc etc....
remove civil liberties like lockdowns, forced vaccinations without informed consent, mask mandates etc etc etc?
perhaps dismantle existing oversight that has clearly failed to perform its function...see 2 trillion dollar deficits, 36 trillion dollar debt increasing by a trillion every 100 days, unfettered mass immigration...and hopefully replace with oversight that performs better. Hopefully...
indeed...the list goes on.
so we are clear, which selection matches your view of the situation:
a) everyone does it, so it's not really a crime
b) he didn't do it (despite all the evidence that he did in fact do it)
c) if trump does it, it's not a crime
d) he's my guy, so I don't really care if it's a crime or not
Well, there is a)...many seem to do it, and nothing happens to them because they are Uniparty endorsed and sure to maintain the status quo of endless war, NGO-graft etc....but Trump will probably not carry on as usual, so he is the exception that has to be removed from the field of play.
However, my response was more from the point of view of
e) It's called lawfare and most folks would buckle under the pressure and simply go away, but Trump did not.
Nelson Mandela was convicted of treason, Mahondas Gandhi spent time in jail....there are other names that could be inserted here. If a....regime....spuriously convicts opposition candidates of crimes does not necessarily mean that the candidate engaged in criminal activity worthy of their being removed from the ballot. See Zimbabwe under Mugabe, South Africa under the apartheid regime, USA under Biden....weaponised justice is as old as kings and kingdoms.
The fact that he won implies that the majority of US voters either saw it for what it was, or recognised the charges were bullshit and did not care. The J6 lawfare simply lent weight to the notion of weaponised justice against those who won't agree with the regime.
With respect, and calmly....the folks who are still going on about 'but...but....he is a convicted felon!' are amongst the half dozen who still watch MSDNC or CNN....ie the propagandised.
Their anchors are the only ones who keep tossing in the 'convicted rapist' or whatever each time they refer to Trump in delivering their narrative.
Nobody else cares because they see it for the bullshit it was.
Briefly, he was never going to play ball with the Uniparty and so we had impeachments one and two, Steele dossier, rape allegations, falsifying business records, 300 years of prison hanging over his head, assassinations (how to spell asassination this early in the morning?) etc etc etc....people saw it for what it was and voted for him nonetheless.
Lawfare, debanking, deplatforming, censoring, attempted assasination (damn..it still doesn't look right!) etc etc....just the Uniparty deperately trying to keep populism out and globalism in.....
the USA, arguably one of the longest-standing, most successful democracies in history with a GDP per capita of $65000 and a long history of checks and balances and civil liberties and the preferred destination for most of the oppressed in the world, is deciding to chuck all that out to
attack the independence of the law
defund education and dismantle its universities
ban books
let an unelected illegal immigrant from a catastrophically failed state dictate key elements of its policy
remove checks and balances
remove civil liberties
dismantle its oversight (ABC) bodies
.. the list goes on..
and basically follow the playbook of Russia, an autocratic regime that despite its vast natural resources and a population of 143 million can barely generate a GDP of $14000 per capita, putting it on a par with Mexico.
Oh come on....get real.
We all know what that was, and it failed, and here we are.....you lost.
Because everyone else knows what that was, even if you don't.
Unless you face the truth you will keep on losing for a long time.
Calmly....on my way to Bilbao....
so we are clear, which selection matches your view of the situation:
a) everyone does it, so it's not really a crime
b) he didn't do it (despite all the evidence that he did in fact do it)
c) if trump does it, it's not a crime
d) he's my guy, so I don't really care if it's a crime or not
Also notable, t has been convicted on 34 counts of falsifying business records to hide the origin and distribution of money paid to hide evidence.
Oh come on....get real.
We all know what that was, and it failed, and here we are.....you lost.
Because everyone else knows what that was, even if you don't.
Unless you face the truth you will keep on losing for a long time.
Musk donated $288 million to Trumpâs 2024 campaign. He and other billionaires had VIP seating at Trumpâs inauguration. Your declaration, in bold, seems to be inconsistent with your opening points about limiting the influence of big money in political campaigns and governance. The suggestion that Trump perhaps is a solution to corruption is belied by the overarching presence and influence of Musk in the Trump administration.
I don't disagree that Musk donation to get out the vote in Pennsylvania is as smelly as Zuckerbux donation to get Biden over the line in 2020. None of it should be allowed, I think. All the big money/dark money in politics should be eradicated, the Actblue money laundering, the Soros, BigPharma....everyone...... All of it. Out.
I don't like that it happened but in a skewed system whaddya gonna do?
The system is corrupted.
This thread sat for a couple of years and was relit with a generic meme about how money is an issue, in a non partisan way, for a change.
I replied with some additional thoughts, also in a non partisan way, about things that are also a problem, then BOOM.
I get a reply that immediately faults me for speaking about them with a link to an unverifiable website accusing me of ignoring Trump trying to seek a third term.
And here we are. What might have been a non partisan discussion becomes the same as all the others, making it all about Trump, with a bogus pretense to boot.
I suggest that all the poly threads be consolidated to one Trump Is An Evil Nazi thread because that is the only thing anyone here (that being the super majority) wants to talk about.
You forgot this:
And you should still cut back on it.
This thread sat for a couple of years and was relit with a generic meme about how money is an issue, in a non partisan way, for a change.
I replied with some additional thoughts, also in a non partisan way, about things that are also a problem, then BOOM.
I get a reply that immediately faults me for speaking about them with a link to an unverifiable website accusing me of ignoring Trump trying to seek a third term.
And here we are. What might have been a non partisan discussion becomes the same as all the others, making it all about Trump, with a bogus pretense to boot.
I suggest that all the poly threads be consolidated to one Trump Is An Evil Nazi thread because that is the only thing anyone here (that being the super majority) wants to talk about.
Musk donated $288 million to Trumpâs 2024 campaign. He and other billionaires had VIP seating at Trumpâs inauguration. Your declaration, in bold, seems to be inconsistent with your opening points about limiting the influence of big money in political campaigns and governance. The suggestion that Trump perhaps is a solution to corruption is belied by the overarching presence and influence of Musk in the Trump administration.
Also notable, t has been convicted on 34 counts of falsifying business records to hide the origin and distribution of money paid to hide evidence.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Mar 22, 2025 - 9:05am
Jiggz wrote:
On standby in Marseilles...calmly....on the face of it I agree 100%....not just in the USA but everywhere. Digging a bit deeper, I would want a definition for democracy though. Is that democracy as in free, fair and secure elections where every citizen-cast ie legal, valid and verified vote with proven chain-of-custody counts, or just every anyone anywhere perhaps-fake vote counts? Secure election platforms are critical, and fudgeable, hackable, dodgy election machinery supplied by oh,look....big money donors should absolutely not be allowed.
Also, not just lobbyist corporate-donor money needs to be kept out of politics, but Soros-type, Zuckerbucks-type and equally Musk-type big money needs to be kept out of politics.
The candidate is voted for in primaries and not thrust upon the people in a bait and switch sleight-of-hand at the last minute.
I would prefer the candidate to actually be reluctant to run but be carried on the will of the people, as opposed to going from running a hotdog stand to making the career change to running for politics because the prospects are better.
All of this is also to say that Trump is not really the threat to democracy he has been made out to be, but definitely a threat to the existing system of corruption that is called democracy but isn't.
And term limits - I am in favour. You should not be entering Congress worth 100k, earning 140k, and 50 years later be worth hundreds of millions. Something is off there. If you were an ironmonger elected to a position by the people, you should ideally be keen to get back to ironmongery in order to get back to a decent living. Likewise the politics/big corporate position revolving door should be locked.
Its a BIG ASK though and also would be difficult to get good people in and it's not proven that the will of the people would be enough to get decent people to accept the challenge.
But, as flawed as democracy is it is still the best system we have come up with, though it might be due for a refinement....
Big love to you and P.
Musk donated $288 million to Trumpâs 2024 campaign. He and other billionaires had VIP seating at Trumpâs inauguration. Your declaration, in bold, seems to be inconsistent with your opening points about limiting the influence of big money in political campaigns and governance. The suggestion that Trump perhaps is a solution to corruption is belied by the overarching presence and influence of Musk in the Trump administration.
On standby in Marseilles...calmly....on the face of it I agree 100%....not just in the USA but everywhere. Digging a bit deeper, I would want a definition for democracy though. Is that democracy as in free, fair and secure elections where every citizen-cast ie legal, valid and verified vote with proven chain-of-custody counts, or just every anyone anywhere perhaps-fake vote counts? Secure election platforms are critical, and fudgeable, hackable, dodgy election machinery supplied by oh,look....big money donors should absolutely not be allowed.
Also, not just lobbyist corporate-donor money needs to be kept out of politics, but Soros-type, Zuckerbucks-type and equally Musk-type big money needs to be kept out of politics.
The candidate is voted for in primaries and not thrust upon the people in a bait and switch sleight-of-hand at the last minute.
I would prefer the candidate to actually be reluctant to run but be carried on the will of the people, as opposed to going from running a hotdog stand to making the career change to running for politics because the prospects are better.
All of this is also to say that Trump is not really the threat to democracy he has been made out to be, but definitely a threat to the existing system of corruption that is called democracy but isn't.
And term limits - I am in favour. You should not be entering Congress worth 100k, earning 140k, and 50 years later be worth hundreds of millions. Something is off there. If you were an ironmonger elected to a position by the people, you should ideally be keen to get back to ironmongery in order to get back to a decent living. Likewise the politics/big corporate position revolving door should be locked.
Its a BIG ASK though and also would be difficult to get good people in and it's not proven that the will of the people would be enough to get decent people to accept the challenge.
But, as flawed as democracy is it is still the best system we have come up with, though it might be due for a refinement....
Let me help you get up to speed, Kurt, because I know you've been stuck in the past as you grind your teeth over Biden and some astronauts:
All those DOGE cuts and the GOP's budget that will gut Medicaid and Medicare? Those are happening because Trump is going to try to push through a massive tax cut skewed towards the super-richâand against you.
And those tariffs are going to jack up prices and boost inflation. '
You think you're squeezed for money now? It's about to get a whole lot worse for you.
You might want to start looking for politicians who are going to help you keep your hard-earned money for yourself, instead of some SOUTH AFRICAN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT SUPER-BILLIONAIRE.
