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Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - fractalv - Jan 29, 2023 - 5:41pm
 
Are you ready for some football? - islander - Jan 29, 2023 - 5:35pm
 
Things I Saw Today... - islander - Jan 29, 2023 - 5:28pm
 
Wordle - daily game - ptooey - Jan 29, 2023 - 4:28pm
 
USA! USA! USA! - R_P - Jan 29, 2023 - 3:01pm
 
Things You Thought Today - miamizsun - Jan 29, 2023 - 2:52pm
 
SCOTUS - Red_Dragon - Jan 29, 2023 - 2:43pm
 
Beer - DaveInSaoMiguel - Jan 29, 2023 - 2:00pm
 
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Today in History - Red_Dragon - Jan 29, 2023 - 9:54am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - miamizsun - Jan 29, 2023 - 8:29am
 
Pretty Darn Good Bass Lines - among the best.... - miamizsun - Jan 29, 2023 - 8:28am
 
Outstanding Covers - Coaxial - Jan 29, 2023 - 7:56am
 
Bad Poetry - miamizsun - Jan 29, 2023 - 7:41am
 
The Obituary Page - GeneP59 - Jan 29, 2023 - 6:58am
 
Audials - roger.holroyd1217 - Jan 29, 2023 - 3:31am
 
The strange tale of KFAT - oldviolin - Jan 28, 2023 - 8:57pm
 
Sunrise, Sunset - islander - Jan 28, 2023 - 6:25pm
 
What Did You Do Today? - Bill_J - Jan 28, 2023 - 6:24pm
 
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Immigration - westslope - Jan 27, 2023 - 4:13pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - Steely_D - Jan 27, 2023 - 3:39pm
 
Linking to "What's Playing" - fraenki - Jan 27, 2023 - 2:18pm
 
What Makes You Cry :) ? - black321 - Jan 27, 2023 - 12:42pm
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - GeneP59 - Jan 27, 2023 - 10:19am
 
The Monks of Zagorsk - cathyetsylvain - Jan 27, 2023 - 9:16am
 
Having a Bad Day??? - GeneP59 - Jan 26, 2023 - 8:27pm
 
Living in America - Red_Dragon - Jan 26, 2023 - 8:16pm
 
Things for which you would sell ManBird's soul - GeneP59 - Jan 26, 2023 - 7:53pm
 
Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see - Steely_D - Jan 26, 2023 - 4:58pm
 
Trump - haresfur - Jan 26, 2023 - 3:59pm
 
OUR CATS!! - Isabeau - Jan 26, 2023 - 3:02pm
 
Oil, Gas Prices & Other Crapola - black321 - Jan 26, 2023 - 12:44pm
 
RightWingNutZ - R_P - Jan 26, 2023 - 12:20pm
 
Anti-War - R_P - Jan 26, 2023 - 10:07am
 
21st century technology - black321 - Jan 26, 2023 - 9:44am
 
Florida - black321 - Jan 26, 2023 - 7:10am
 
The end of the world - miamizsun - Jan 26, 2023 - 6:38am
 
Joe Biden - kcar - Jan 25, 2023 - 9:21pm
 
Love is... - Isabeau - Jan 25, 2023 - 6:03pm
 
Least Successful Phishing Scams - Proclivities - Jan 25, 2023 - 6:35am
 
Poetry Forum - ScottN - Jan 25, 2023 - 5:12am
 
a thank you for the team - guy-wernher - Jan 25, 2023 - 3:05am
 
COVID-19 - thisbody - Jan 24, 2023 - 3:41pm
 
Todd Rundgren - Steely_D - Jan 24, 2023 - 11:08am
 
Republican Party - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 24, 2023 - 8:35am
 
Nuclear power - saviour or scourge? - miamizsun - Jan 24, 2023 - 6:44am
 
Surfing! - thisbody - Jan 24, 2023 - 2:15am
 
::odd but intriguing:: - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jan 23, 2023 - 9:00pm
 
Manbird's Episiotomy Stitch Licking Clinic - KEEP OUT - miamizsun - Jan 23, 2023 - 3:09pm
 
Way Cool Video - miamizsun - Jan 23, 2023 - 2:00pm
 
Russia - cc_rider - Jan 23, 2023 - 8:14am
 
NOT Main Mix - ScopPics - Jan 23, 2023 - 4:25am
 
Memorials - Remembering Our Loved Ones - GeneP59 - Jan 22, 2023 - 9:14am
 
News of the Weird - Bill_J - Jan 20, 2023 - 7:51pm
 
Breaking News - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 20, 2023 - 2:57pm
 
Philosophy (Meaty Metaphysical Munchables!) - R_P - Jan 20, 2023 - 1:48pm
 
The Bucket List - miamizsun - Jan 20, 2023 - 10:38am
 
Derplahoma! - Red_Dragon - Jan 20, 2023 - 10:02am
 
Things that make you go Hmmmm..... - haresfur - Jan 19, 2023 - 8:14pm
 
What music have you paid real money for recently? - kurtster - Jan 19, 2023 - 7:30pm
 
Twitter's finest moment - westslope - Jan 19, 2023 - 7:03pm
 
Tidal / Spotify - bigbargain - Jan 19, 2023 - 2:33pm
 
Is there any GOOD news out there? - black321 - Jan 19, 2023 - 2:06pm
 
Tesla (motors, batteries, etc) - Steely_D - Jan 19, 2023 - 11:17am
 
Baseball, anyone? - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 19, 2023 - 11:13am
 
Covers that are better than the original - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 19, 2023 - 9:01am
 
Wardrobe malfunction - miamizsun - Jan 19, 2023 - 8:42am
 
Climate Change - miamizsun - Jan 19, 2023 - 8:26am
 
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miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 2:52pm

 Peyote wrote:


I agree to government keeping its HEAD (pardon the pun) out of my lady parts!



 
Coaxial

Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543westofParadis,1491east ofParadise
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 11:28am

 Peyote wrote:
 Coaxial wrote:

{#Drummer}
Hey Randy!!
 
{#Hug}
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 9:54am

 Steely_D wrote:

You guys probably know I have a medical background, so I've had to think about this abortion topic a bit. I've delivered nearly 100 babies. Once, during OB training, my boss called me to come watch/participate in an abortion. Afterward, I told him that he need never call me again, and he didn't. Gives you an idea about my gut feelings, but let's not stop there.

I firmly believe that abortion as a means of simple "whoops" birth control - careless, repeated, flippant - is horrible. It's such a complex issue that to make it unimportant is lazy and sinful, if there is such a thing. I've cared for more than one woman  who has had almost twenty abortions.

But, there are absolutely circumstances where it seems like the right, even kind, thing to do. Saying it should never ever happen is just being thoughtless about the multilayered topic.

To be clear: after conception, the embryo/fetus/baby is not the woman's body. The fetus (let's use one word) has a distinct set of genes that are not the mother's. For instance, it can have a different blood type. So reducing the topic to "controlling a woman's body" misses this fact. (Pregnancy prevention has to do with the woman's body, of course.)

So abortion is really talking about the consequence to another -potentially- living thing. But let's not get too black&white about it. Truly, up to a certain point, it can be something as non-human as a morula, which  is not something I would consider a baby or fetus or whatever. So I'm gonna jump completely out of the topic of "but when is it a baby?"

But here's where I do jump back in, and the point of this ramble: politicians have no business legislating health care, and that includes abortion. They don't know enough, and the knowledge base of health care changes constantly, when it's done right. In my home town, one of the elected officials was a C student but a good basketball player and I completely believe that he can't read a lot of the polysyllabic words in this screed. And yet he's pontificating at meetings about what "should" be done on this topic and others, and frequently by invoking Christianity. Makes me livid.

TL;DR: medical care decisions shouldn't be legislated by people who don't know the topic; they need to stay in their lane and let medical boards decide who is/isn't giving bad medical care.



Your comments reminded me of something Sagan said years ago



Peyote

Peyote Avatar

Location: limbo
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 9:42am

 miamizsun wrote:


maybe that's the morula of the story
sorry i couldn't help myself...


I agree to government keeping its HEAD (pardon the pun) out of my lady parts!
Peyote

Peyote Avatar

Location: limbo
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 9:39am

 Coaxial wrote:

{#Drummer}


Hey Randy!!
Coaxial

Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543westofParadis,1491east ofParadise
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 8:00am

 miamizsun wrote:
 Steely_D wrote:

Mu. All situations where the state decides what should be medically done are wrong. Physicians should be trained in good health care, communicate options to and work with the patients or their proxies, and be censured/defrocked by a medical board if they're giving bad care (which includes assault if they perform care that the patient doesn't want). "Bad care" isn't decided in the giant compromise of the legislature.
maybe that's the morula of the story
sorry i couldn't help myself...
 
{#Drummer}
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 7:49am

 Steely_D wrote:

Mu.

All situations where the state decides what should be medically done are wrong. Physicians should be trained in good health care, communicate options to and work with the patients or their proxies, and be censured/defrocked by a medical board if they're giving bad care (which includes assault if they perform care that the patient doesn't want). "Bad care" isn't decided in the giant compromise of the legislature.


maybe that's the morula of the story
sorry i couldn't help myself...
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 5:40am

 Steely_D wrote:

Mu.

All situations where the state decides what should be medically done are wrong. Physicians should be trained in good health care, communicate options to and work with the patients or their proxies, and be censured/defrocked by a medical board if they're giving bad care (which includes assault if they perform care that the patient doesn't want). "Bad care" isn't decided in the giant compromise of the legislature.


Absolutely Agree. 

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 7:42pm

 westslope wrote:

'You' is definitely not me.  All the same.....

Scenario 1.    The woman and doctor decide.  The doctor argues in favour of sterilization for the sake of the woman's health;  the woman agrees; the litigation is performed.  

Scenario 2.   The woman and doctor decide. The doctor argues in favour of sterilization for the sake of the woman's health; the woman disagrees.  The state intervenes and forces the woman to be sterilized.

Scenario 3. The woman and doctor decide. The doctor argues in favour of sterilization for the sake of the woman's health; the woman disagrees. The state does not intervene.  The doctor continues to perform abortions.

At which point you Steely_D jump in here and give us stylized facts of the health risk for women who frequently receive abortions.  


Mu.

All situations where the state decides what should be medically done are wrong. Physicians should be trained in good health care, communicate options to and work with the patients or their proxies, and be censured/defrocked by a medical board if they're giving bad care (which includes assault if they perform care that the patient doesn't want). "Bad care" isn't decided in the giant compromise of the legislature.
Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: Owl Creek Bridge
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 7:06pm

 Steely_D wrote:


No need to insult me. Something I still wonder about - there are women out there IRL that have had that many (more than a dozen) abortions, and I think that's wrong. How about you?





KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 7:04pm

 Isabeau wrote:


Yup, it did.
Still prefer foldable maps for overall directional context instead of a focus on nearby restaurants.   

I like the old school maps too.
It's nice to see point A to point B without all that scrolling.


KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 7:02pm

 Steely_D wrote:


No need to insult me. Something I still wonder about - there are women out there IRL that have had that many (more than a dozen) abortions, and I think that's wrong. How about you?

I agree with you.


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 4:55pm

 Peyote wrote:


And you get this information where? And what business is it of yours how many "abortions" a woman has? Do you consider Plan B or morning after pill an abortion?

You're kinda jumping in late, so read a few posts prior to this instead of asking me to do it for you.
And, you could give your opinion on the topic instead of just throwing more question bombs.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 3:00pm

 Steely_D wrote:


No need to insult me. Something I still wonder about - there are women out there IRL that have had that many (more than a dozen) abortions, and I think that's wrong. How about you?


'You' is definitely not me.  All the same.....

Scenario 1.    The woman and doctor decide.  The doctor argues in favour of sterilization for the sake of the woman's health;  the woman agrees; the litigation is performed.  

Scenario 2.   The woman and doctor decide. The doctor argues in favour of sterilization for the sake of the woman's health; the woman disagrees.  The state intervenes and forces the woman to be sterilized.

Scenario 3. The woman and doctor decide. The doctor argues in favour of sterilization for the sake of the woman's health; the woman disagrees. The state does not intervene.  The doctor continues to perform abortions.

At which point you Steely_D jump in here and give us stylized facts of the health risk for women who frequently receive abortions.  

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 1:15pm

 Bill_J wrote:

...how did I do all that without the internet (& cell phone)? I mean, canoe routes, canoe rentals, freight train schedules, rendezvous in Michigan, etc. Planning took a lot more time in the old days.



Yup, it did.
Still prefer foldable maps for overall directional context instead of a focus on nearby restaurants.   
Peyote

Peyote Avatar

Location: limbo
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 28, 2023 - 11:41am

 Steely_D wrote:


No need to insult me. Something I still wonder about - there are women out there IRL that have had that many (more than a dozen) abortions, and I think that's wrong. How about you?



And you get this information where? And what business is it of yours how many "abortions" a woman has? Do you consider Plan B or morning after pill an abortion?
Bill_J

Bill_J Avatar



Posted: Jan 27, 2023 - 3:56pm

...how did I do all that without the internet (& cell phone)? I mean, canoe routes, canoe rentals, freight train schedules, rendezvous in Michigan, etc. Planning took a lot more time in the old days.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 27, 2023 - 1:42pm

 Isabeau wrote:


Woa General Patton; I see what you did there. Had no idea you were Hall Monitor over the rules. Buttons noted.
Yes,  I agree  politicians shouldn't be legislating anti-abortion or any other sort of medical care. 


No need to insult me. Something I still wonder about - there are women out there IRL that have had that many (more than a dozen) abortions, and I think that's wrong. How about you?

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 27, 2023 - 12:40pm

 Steely_D wrote:

* - I didn't say anything about "brutal." You're adding in your own thoughts there, not mine.
** - let's save gun control for a different time, since this is such a complex topic on its own.
*** - doesn't matter what you "believe." The fact is that it's a different, separate thing - yes, dependent on the mother's body. 
**** - not sure why you brought that up. My post doesn't include the words sacred/special/angelic. 
***** - like you are hanging at the Neo natal ward? Be careful what criteria you set up as "truly caring."
****** - and yet, true. There are women out there IRL that have had that many abortions, and I think that's wrong. How about you?
*******- Wait, it takes sperm to make pregnancy? Well that's news to me. But the post was talking about abortion. Let's stay in that arena for a bit, OK?

And I think you missed the point of the whole post: politicians shouldn't be legislating anti-abortion or any other sort of medical care. Are you with me on that or do you just want to get lost in the weeds?


Woa General Patton; I see what you did there. Had no idea you were Hall Monitor over the rules. Buttons noted.
Yes,  I agree  politicians shouldn't be legislating anti-abortion or any other sort of medical care. 
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 27, 2023 - 10:49am

 Steely_D wrote:

You guys probably know I have a medical background, so I've had to think about this abortion topic a bit. I've delivered nearly 100 babies. Once, during OB training, my boss called me to come watch/participate in an abortion. Afterward, I told him that he need never call me again, and he didn't. Gives you an idea about my gut feelings, but let's not stop there.

I firmly believe that abortion as a means of simple "whoops" birth control - careless, repeated, flippant - is horrible. It's such a complex issue that to make it unimportant is lazy and sinful, if there is such a thing. I've cared for more than one woman  who has had almost twenty abortions.

But, there are absolutely circumstances where it seems like the right, even kind, thing to do. Saying it should never ever happen is just being thoughtless about the multilayered topic.

To be clear: after conception, the embryo/fetus/baby is not the woman's body. The fetus (let's use one word) has a distinct set of genes that are not the mother's. For instance, it can have a different blood type. So reducing the topic to "controlling a woman's body" misses this fact. (Pregnancy prevention has to do with the woman's body, of course.)

So abortion is really talking about the consequence to another -potentially- living thing. But let's not get too black&white about it. Truly, up to a certain point, it can be something as non-human as a morula, which  is not something I would consider a baby or fetus or whatever. So I'm gonna jump completely out of the topic of "but when is it a baby?"

But here's where I do jump back in, and the point of this ramble: politicians have no business legislating health care, and that includes abortion. They don't know enough, and the knowledge base of health care changes constantly, when it's done right. In my home town, one of the elected officials was a C student but a good basketball player and I completely believe that he can't read a lot of the polysyllabic words in this screed. And yet he's pontificating at meetings about what "should" be done on this topic and others, and frequently by invoking Christianity. Makes me livid.

TL;DR: medical care decisions shouldn't be legislated by people who don't know the topic; they need to stay in their lane and let medical boards decide who is/isn't giving bad medical care.



Thanks for your insightful and personal comments.

In that world, where we all understand the existential value of our existence, and weighed that in each of our choices, I agree. Leave it 100% to the individual. But that's not the world we live in.

Eventually, at some stage of the debate, politicians will play a role...and I'm searching for the best way they can play that role, and in the most informed way.

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