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Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - islander - Nov 23, 2021 - 6:03am
 
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And the good news is.... - westslope - Nov 19, 2021 - 10:53am
 
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Joe Biden - Red_Dragon - Nov 18, 2021 - 9:37am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » History - lather, rinse, repeat. Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
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haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 2:58pm

 kcar wrote:



I noted that the NYT review lists some of Churchill's sins according to Wheatcroft's book:

Churchill’s disastrous Gallipoli campaign in World War I, his fervor for maintaining Britain’s overseas empire, his misguided efforts during World War II to fight in Africa and the Mediterranean rather than invade France, his deadly lack of interest in the famine in Bengal, his support for carpet-bombing German cities and his cynical deals with Stalin, among others. 


I wonder if Wheatcroft openly discusses the complicity of others in these failings. For instance, Gallipoli didn't happen just because Churchill alone thought the venture's success would knock the Ottoman Empire out of the war. Churchill was not the only one wanting to hold onto his country's empire—that was likely the prevailing desire among the victors. France, for instance, desperately tried to re-gain control of Vietnam after WWII (which led to the US being heavily involved in supporting the French well before the disaster at Dien Bien Phu). 

As for "his cynical deals with Stalin", Churchill was NOT playing from a strong hand. England had been dramatically reduced as a military and economic power. Stalin did not trust his Western allies and was consumed with protecting Russia with satellite buffer states. The massive and effective Red Army was not going to be removed from eastern Germany and eastern Europe through diplomatic negotiations or sweet talk. Churchill likely worked as hard as he could to get reasonable deals with Stalin and he was not helped by FDR's dramatic decline in health leading up to the Yalta Conference. 

Here's an excerpt from the NYT review of Wheatcroft's book—I strongly recommend y'all check out Andrew Roberts's comments in the Spectator piece (the link is found in the excerpt below):

If it feels as though Wheatcroft gives short shrift to the profound importance of Churchill’s courageous stand against Hitler, perhaps that is because he has written his book almost as an explicit rejoinder to Andrew Roberts, who celebrated that stand so
expertly in his 2018 biography, “Churchill: Walking With Destiny.”

Small wonder that Roberts has already fired back in The Spectator, deriding Wheatcroft’s attack on Churchill as “character assassination” and taking issue with various factual assertions. “Never in the field of Churchill revisionism have so many punches been thrown in so many pages with so few hitting home,” Roberts wrote. They are, of course, taking different views of the same man. Roberts’s book was described in these pages as the best single-volume biography of Churchill yet written. Wheatcroft’s could be the best single-volume indictment of Churchill yet written.





Churchill really screwed up with the Ironsides, too.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 1:56pm

 R_P wrote:

Ok, two-trick pony.
“He led the British nobly and heroically during one of the great crises of history, and has misled them ever since, sustaining the country with beguiling illusions of greatness, of standing unique and alone, while preventing the British from coming to terms with their true place in the world,” Wheatcroft writes. “If I make much of Churchill’s failures and follies,” he adds, “that’s partly because others have made too little of them since his rise to heroic status.”

Churchill revisionism, of course, is almost as much of a cottage industry as Churchill hagiography. Books with titles like “Churchill: A Study in Failure” have appeared regularly for more than a half-century, all the way through “The Churchill Myths” last year. Nigel Hamilton just finished a three-volume series on Franklin D. Roosevelt dedicated partly to the notion that the American president had to stop Churchill from bungling the fight against Nazi Germany. (...)

“This is not a hostile account,” Wheatcroft insists, eschewing the term “revisionist” in favor of “alternative.” But other than the one bright spot in 1940, it is a withering assessment of Churchill’s life, his efforts to airbrush his legacy and the so-called Churchill cult that emerged after his death.




I noted that the NYT review lists some of Churchill's sins according to Wheatcroft's book:

Churchill’s disastrous Gallipoli campaign in World War I, his fervor for maintaining Britain’s overseas empire, his misguided efforts during World War II to fight in Africa and the Mediterranean rather than invade France, his deadly lack of interest in the famine in Bengal, his support for carpet-bombing German cities and his cynical deals with Stalin, among others. 


I wonder if Wheatcroft openly discusses the complicity of others in these failings. For instance, Gallipoli didn't happen just because Churchill alone thought the venture's success would knock the Ottoman Empire out of the war. Churchill was not the only one wanting to hold onto his country's empire—that was likely the prevailing desire among the victors. France, for instance, desperately tried to re-gain control of Vietnam after WWII (which led to the US being heavily involved in supporting the French well before the disaster at Dien Bien Phu). 

As for "his cynical deals with Stalin", Churchill was NOT playing from a strong hand. England had been dramatically reduced as a military and economic power. Stalin did not trust his Western allies and was consumed with protecting Russia with satellite buffer states. The massive and effective Red Army was not going to be removed from eastern Germany and eastern Europe through diplomatic negotiations or sweet talk. Churchill likely worked as hard as he could to get reasonable deals with Stalin and he was not helped by FDR's dramatic decline in health leading up to the Yalta Conference. 

Here's an excerpt from the NYT review of Wheatcroft's book—I strongly recommend y'all check out Andrew Roberts's comments in the Spectator piece (the link is found in the excerpt below):

If it feels as though Wheatcroft gives short shrift to the profound importance of Churchill’s courageous stand against Hitler, perhaps that is because he has written his book almost as an explicit rejoinder to Andrew Roberts, who celebrated that stand so
expertly in his 2018 biography, “Churchill: Walking With Destiny.”

Small wonder that Roberts has already fired back in The Spectator, deriding Wheatcroft’s attack on Churchill as “character assassination” and taking issue with various factual assertions. “Never in the field of Churchill revisionism have so many punches been thrown in so many pages with so few hitting home,” Roberts wrote. They are, of course, taking different views of the same man. Roberts’s book was described in these pages as the best single-volume biography of Churchill yet written. Wheatcroft’s could be the best single-volume indictment of Churchill yet written.



R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 12:09pm

 kurtster wrote:
well, yes or no ?

I did notice that you did not mention (...).  So I must have been correct on that.

Ok, two-trick pony.
“He led the British nobly and heroically during one of the great crises of history, and has misled them ever since, sustaining the country with beguiling illusions of greatness, of standing unique and alone, while preventing the British from coming to terms with their true place in the world,” Wheatcroft writes. “If I make much of Churchill’s failures and follies,” he adds, “that’s partly because others have made too little of them since his rise to heroic status.”

Churchill revisionism, of course, is almost as much of a cottage industry as Churchill hagiography. Books with titles like “Churchill: A Study in Failure” have appeared regularly for more than a half-century, all the way through “The Churchill Myths” last year. Nigel Hamilton just finished a three-volume series on Franklin D. Roosevelt dedicated partly to the notion that the American president had to stop Churchill from bungling the fight against Nazi Germany. (...)

“This is not a hostile account,” Wheatcroft insists, eschewing the term “revisionist” in favor of “alternative.” But other than the one bright spot in 1940, it is a withering assessment of Churchill’s life, his efforts to airbrush his legacy and the so-called Churchill cult that emerged after his death.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 12:02pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Pretty sure you liked (...)  I am also sure that you approve (...)

One-trick pony.
 
well, yes or no ?

I did notice that you did not mention my thought about you not liking Churchill.  So I must have been correct on that.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 11:56am

 kurtster wrote:
Pretty sure you liked (...)  I am also sure that you approve (...)

One-trick pony.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 11:54am

 R_P wrote:
A racist, a hypocrite, a terrible judge of character: These are just some of the ways Winston Churchill is recast in a new book.
During a protest over the killing of George Floyd last year, demonstrators in London targeted the famed statue of Winston Churchill in Parliament Square. Underneath his name someone had spray-painted the words “was a racist.” To guard against further damage, the government temporarily boarded up the statue, drawing a rebuke from Prime Minister Boris Johnson, a self-styled Churchill acolyte, who declared that “we cannot now try to edit or censor our past.”

In his new book, “Churchill’s Shadow,” Geoffrey Wheatcroft takes a literary spray can to the iconic World War II leader, attempting metaphorically at least to recast the many memorials and books devoted to Sir Winston over the years. Churchill, in this telling, was not just a racist but a hypocrite, a dissembler, a narcissist, an opportunist, an imperialist, a drunk, a strategic bungler, a tax dodger, a neglectful father, a credit-hogging author, a terrible judge of character and, most of all, a masterful mythmaker. (...)
 
Say anything you want now that he is dead and gone.  Doesn't change what he did to stop Hitler.

He was most certainly the right man at the right time.

I'm sure that you disagree with my opinion of Churchill.

Pretty sure you liked Chamberlain and think that he was the right man for the job of taking Hitler seriously.

I am also sure that you approve of Biden's ditching of the Churchill bust in the Oval Office.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 11:11am

A racist, a hypocrite, a terrible judge of character: These are just some of the ways Winston Churchill is recast in a new book.
During a protest over the killing of George Floyd last year, demonstrators in London targeted the famed statue of Winston Churchill in Parliament Square. Underneath his name someone had spray-painted the words “was a racist.” To guard against further damage, the government temporarily boarded up the statue, drawing a rebuke from Prime Minister Boris Johnson, a self-styled Churchill acolyte, who declared that “we cannot now try to edit or censor our past.”

In his new book, “Churchill’s Shadow,” Geoffrey Wheatcroft takes a literary spray can to the iconic World War II leader, attempting metaphorically at least to recast the many memorials and books devoted to Sir Winston over the years. Churchill, in this telling, was not just a racist but a hypocrite, a dissembler, a narcissist, an opportunist, an imperialist, a drunk, a strategic bungler, a tax dodger, a neglectful father, a credit-hogging author, a terrible judge of character and, most of all, a masterful mythmaker. (...)

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 6:26am


ditty

ditty Avatar

Location: centex
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 15, 2017 - 12:37pm

 miamizsun wrote:
i'm going to break some tradition

japan in 9 mins 

warning: sorta comedy stuff ahead

 

 
that was fun!
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 15, 2017 - 11:26am

i'm going to break some tradition

japan in 9 mins 

warning: sorta comedy stuff ahead



 


aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 31, 2015 - 11:21am

Republicans seem to be moving towards another Government Shutdown showdown over Planned Parenthood Funding
Because the previous times they've tried this, it worked so well for them politically!
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 31, 2015 - 5:30am


NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 31, 2014 - 3:23pm

Jeepers, that's good. And too close to the truth to be that funny. It's one of the laughs that sort of sticks halfway down your throat.
Alexandra

Alexandra Avatar

Location: PNW
Gender: Female


Posted: Mar 31, 2014 - 2:41pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 

 

  Very clever indeed
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 31, 2014 - 2:29pm

 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Mar 31, 2014 - 1:50pm

 meower wrote:


 
o.m.g. that is hysterical.
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Mar 31, 2014 - 1:41pm


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 3:30pm

 aflanigan wrote:


OMG - two Austrian Economists discussing economic policy and politics for over half an hour?  I'm really surprised the audio engineer was able to edit out the sound of throngs of nubile young women pounding on the studio doors to try and get their hands on these hunky Austrian wonks!!  I can barely hear it in the background!!

{#Wink}

 
geeks {#Wink}
Zukiwi

Zukiwi Avatar

Location: Montreal's suburb
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 3:23pm

 aflanigan wrote: 
It just proves the point that unions are necessary to protect workers from outrageous abuses. Given the chance and opportunity, many greedy owners would still do the same here too if it were not for legislation and unions.
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 2:51pm

 aflanigan wrote: 
Amazing similarity wasn't it - locked doors, no escape, garment factory.
The laws written into safety regs are the very ones these companies seek to avoid by setting up operations offshore. Murder by profit margin.
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