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Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 3:09pm

 Beaker wrote:

Russian soldier.  Note the blended choices in camo - he's ready for any environ! Also note the choice in combat boots.  Stylish.


Those are strictly beer/tampon/cigs lighter run-to-the-local Sak N Run Convenience store shoes! 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 3:09pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
somehow I get the feeling our pet progressive reactionary-in-other-garb is feeling a little tender.  

if you feel the need to conflate ex-soviet satellite states seeking freedom from the resurgence of one party soviet rule with simply being myopic chickens dancing to the tune of US neolibs out to make a buck on arm's sale, be my guest, but that is a pretty contorted, obscurantist take on it that requires its own dead-weight's worth  in Mearsheimer "it's all just power politics" thinking. You call the US out on its moral bankruptcy and its hypocrisy (in our reply to Lazy8), not without some justification, but you know what? I think the US is irrelevant to the collapse of the Russian empire. ALL European empires have collapsed under the weight of their own contradictions and I don't see Russia being any exception. I also think Mearsheimer sucks big time. As soon as you go down that road you undermine any moral/political credibility you might yourself have aspired too, making you just as bad/devoid of principle as the nasty US you obviously despise so much, leaving you both in a Hobbesian mud made up of the lowest common denominator that humankind can aspire to.  Bravo. 

But get this,  why is it that the satellite states of Russia that are/were (some have succeeded) so keen to get out from the hegemonic umbrella of Russia post 1989? Why are they the states that immediately stepped up to the plate when it came to sending support to Ukraine? Why has GDP soared in these states? None of this has anything to do with the weight of geopolitical power centres (by this I mean military), be it the US, Europe, Russia or China. It is solely due to the people wanting something better. And they are willing to risk the ire of the mighty Soviet army to find it. 

The only people who seem to have a problem with this are people like you who think Russian military might is of itself enough justification for submission, which only gets us back to the Hobbesian mud referred to below. 

So, yet again, as I have done repeatedly, I ask you: what is the Russian system in your opinion offering these people that would give it some form of credible moral authority? Why do YOU think these satellite states are wrong to fight for what they see as a better future that is free from the yoke of Russian/Gazprom mafiosi rule?

This is the point where you inevitably bail out of the discussion because it is oh so much easier to diss the United States with its chequered record on human rights and wars of aggression (yawn).

Yes, feel free to imagine some emotional effect and habitually discard counter arguments. It's more the tedium of reading the same pablum provided by sources from your ideological (Hegemonic/Atlanticist/Fella/Neoliberal) bubble(s). It's all been explained numerous times over many years. Yet you can't help the cherry-picking and obtuse twisting into the straw men.

All the chicken hawks sing: If you're not with us, you're with (the enemy du jour). All critics of the infantile dualism, incl. Mearsheimer, Chomsky and others, face the same accusations.

March onwards!

Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 12:03pm


Russian soldier.  Note the blended choices in camo - he's ready for any environ! Also note the choice in combat boots.  Stylish.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 11:46am

 R_P wrote:

Who's (still) calling the shots?

Speak for yourself when it comes to cluelessness. Isn't it always about Democracy™, Liberty™, Prosperity and Flourishing?! lol.

Grab those suitcases and join the resistance! To the last Ukrainian, chicken hawks!

"I think this summer, Ukraine will regain military momentum," he said.

And he stressed that Ukraine's success is in American interest. "If we help Ukraine now, they can become the best business partner we ever dreamed of," Graham said, citing mineral assets in Ukraine.

"This is a very big deal, how Ukraine ends. Let's help them win a war we can't afford to lose."
The Ugly American Id on display, but feel free to buy the good-vs-evil-happy-ending Marvel stories.



somehow I get the feeling our pet progressive reactionary-in-other-garb is feeling a little tender.  

if you feel the need to conflate ex-soviet satellite states seeking freedom from the resurgence of one party soviet rule with simply being myopic chickens dancing to the tune of US neolibs out to make a buck on arm's sale, be my guest, but that is a pretty contorted, obscurantist take on it that requires its own dead-weight's worth  in Mearsheimer "it's all just power politics" thinking. You call the US out on its moral bankruptcy and its hypocrisy (in our reply to Lazy8), not without some justification, but you know what? I think the US is irrelevant to the collapse of the Russian empire. ALL European empires have collapsed under the weight of their own contradictions and I don't see Russia being any exception. I also think Mearsheimer sucks big time. As soon as you go down that road you undermine any moral/political credibility you might yourself have aspired too, making you just as bad/devoid of principle as the nasty US you obviously despise so much, leaving you both in a Hobbesian mud made up of the lowest common denominator that humankind can aspire to.  Bravo. 

But get this,  why is it that the satellite states of Russia that are/were (some have succeeded) so keen to get out from the hegemonic umbrella of Russia post 1989? Why are they the states that immediately stepped up to the plate when it came to sending support to Ukraine? Why has GDP soared in these states? None of this has anything to do with the weight of geopolitical power centres (by this I mean military), be it the US, Europe, Russia or China. It is solely due to the people wanting something better. And they are willing to risk the ire of the mighty Soviet army to find it. 

The only people who seem to have a problem with this are people like you who think Russian military might is of itself enough justification for submission, which only gets us back to the Hobbesian mud referred to below. 

So, yet again, as I have done repeatedly, I ask you: what is the Russian system in your opinion offering these people that would give it some form of credible moral authority? Why do YOU think these satellite states are wrong to fight for what they see as a better future that is free from the yoke of Russian/Gazprom mafiosi rule?

This is the point where you inevitably bail out of the discussion because it is oh so much easier to diss the United States with its chequered record on human rights and wars of aggression (yawn). 



Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 10:55am

 kurtster wrote:

Sadly, I don't see Russia being defeated anytime soon.

I keep seeing flashbacks of promised defeat of the enemy in Viet Nam, which never happened.


My take ... it's a complex situation, not just on the ground, but in geopolitics.  Ignoring the bluster, how will Trump actually respond / what actions will he take once in office?  How will Europe react once Trump's intentions and actions are known?  Europe is already showing significant signs they'll go it alone if Trump were to actually abandon the cause.  I suspect much of the world is waiting for the US election outcome - even Putin is trying to concrete his gains before November.  One way or the other, I'm thinking the war will be over in ~+/-2yrs, 3yrs at max.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 10:38am

 Beaker wrote:
Once defeated in Ukraine, Russia will not be a significant threat in a conventional war for a long time to come.

 
Sadly, I don't see Russia being defeated anytime soon.

I keep seeing flashbacks of promised defeat of the enemy in Viet Nam, which never happened.
thisbody

thisbody Avatar

Location: empty pages
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 9:50am

 Beaker wrote:

With outcomes overlooked by many, this war has exercised both new and old weaponry and tactics.  And in doing so, multiple weaknesses and failures in Russia's military tech and doctrine have become evident.  Ukraine's innovative use of tactics and western technology is one of the pleasant surprises - and key learning opportunities. Western military is taking notice of Russia's failures - and adjusting accordingly.  Once defeated in Ukraine, Russia will not be a significant threat in a conventional war for a long time to come.

Russia’s War in Ukraine: Critical Vulnerabilities to Russia’s Military Operations and Systems


Ooohh.. sharp! Another exploit of taxpayers' money, and the biggest of 'em all folks, the weapons industry being quoted for "statesmanship" leading us all to the (s) laughter-house.

Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 9:41am

With outcomes overlooked by many, this war has exercised both new and old weaponry and tactics.  And in doing so, multiple weaknesses and failures in Russia's military tech and doctrine have become evident.  Ukraine's innovative use of tactics and western technology is one of the pleasant surprises - and key learning opportunities. Western military is taking notice of Russia's failures - and adjusting accordingly.  Once defeated in Ukraine, Russia will not be a significant threat in a conventional war for a long time to come.

Russia’s War in Ukraine: Critical Vulnerabilities to Russia’s Military Operations and Systems


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 9:23am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Every inch of ground everywhere has blood on it. That does not justify further blood. And there is no justification anywhere, ever, for a war of conquest.

Your whataboutism is pure distraction. Ukraine and NATO were never a threat to Russia, they were just obstacles to Russia growing its empire. Even if they had posed a threat I've seen you denounce the concept of pre-emptive war in these very pages, as if that were a principled stance.

We know better now.

Pre-emptive wars are US policy too. You don't get to decide when another country, with its own national interest, feels threatened. Your job is to inflate threats and further chauvinistic hysteria.

Whataboutism is there to point out the blatant hypocrisy. No credibility or moral leadership whatsoever.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 9:14am

 R_P wrote:
National interests (potentially) subservient to yours. Iraq is a country, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc., etc. Their sovereignty or national interests were of little concern.

Some annexations barely raise a US eyebrow. The US annexed as well.

Every inch of ground everywhere has blood on it. That does not justify further blood. And there is no justification anywhere, ever, for a war of conquest.

Your whataboutism is pure distraction. Ukraine and NATO were never a threat to Russia, they were just obstacles to Russia growing its empire. Even if they had posed a threat I've seen you denounce the concept of pre-emptive war in these very pages, as if that were a principled stance.

We know better now.


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 16, 2024 - 6:23am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Why on earth do you think this war has anything to do with US hegemony?

If there is one single country that gives me hope for the future, it is Ukraine. Not Russia, Not China. Not the U.S.  Not Germany.
Ukraine, followed by the Baltics.

Unlike the rest of us
, they know what they are fighting for.

Who's (still) calling the shots?

Speak for yourself when it comes to cluelessness. Isn't it always about Democracy™, Liberty™, Prosperity and Flourishing?! lol.

Grab those suitcases and join the resistance! To the last Ukrainian, chicken hawks!

"I think this summer, Ukraine will regain military momentum," he said.

And he stressed that Ukraine's success is in American interest. "If we help Ukraine now, they can become the best business partner we ever dreamed of," Graham said, citing mineral assets in Ukraine.

"This is a very big deal, how Ukraine ends. Let's help them win a war we can't afford to lose."
The Ugly American Id on display, but feel free to buy the good-vs-evil-happy-ending Marvel stories.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:41pm

 R_P wrote:

It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...



wanna tissue?
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:36pm

 R_P wrote:

National interests (potentially) subservient to yours. Iraq is a country, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc., etc. Their sovereignty or national interests were of little concern.

Some annexations barely raise a US eyebrow. The US annexed as well.


Why on earth do you think this war has anything to do with US hegemony?  Until recently the US has been appalling at supporting Ukraine and its support is still pretty paltry. 

Russia has been bombing the civilian population of Ukraine on a daily basis, committing war crime after war crime as it lobs guided missiles, drones and glide bombs at civilian targets for well over two years and how many Patriot batteries did the US give them? Just one. That's right just ONE. 
And this list goes on:
NO aircraft (apart from 20 Soviet-era helicopters from Afghanistan)
Just 76 tanks, again most of which were Soviet-build stock
20 HIMARs, etc. etc.
At the same time, it refused to allow Ukraine to attack any sites inside Russia, effectively telling Ukraine to just grin and bear it. 

If anything, the US has been following a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, policy of appeasement that has only encouraged the Russians. 
But no, you continue to insist this is a battle of mighty Soviet power against the evil aggressive west and NATO projecting its power. 
Scuse my French, but like fuck it is.

If there is one single country that gives me hope for the future, it is Ukraine. Not Russia, Not China. Not the U.S.  Not Germany.
Ukraine, followed by the Baltics.

Unlike the rest of us, they know what they are fighting for.


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 9:22pm

Ukraine-Russia Peace Is as Elusive as Ever. But in 2022 They Were Talking.
Representatives from the warring nations held peace talks in the early weeks of the Russian invasion. They fizzled. Documents from those talks show why any new ones will face major obstacles.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 9:02pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Yeah, opposing a defensive alliance can be a fashionable stance until your neighbors start getting invaded.

The good old days.

Yugoslavia or Ukraine were not part of the offensive alliance. Invasions are terrible unless American Power is involved. Special rules from the "liberal" rules-based "order." Please.

Department of "Defense" does a lot of defending. Aggression gets reframed as defense. Look around.

R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 8:59pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Ukraine is a country. With "national interests"—like not being invaded. Like not having its territory seized in a war of conquest. That just doesn't seem to register for you. Why is that?

National interests (potentially) subservient to yours. Iraq is a country, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc., etc. Their sovereignty or national interests were of little concern.

Some annexations barely raise a US eyebrow. The US annexed as well.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 8:48pm

 R_P wrote:
It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...

Yeah, opposing a defensive alliance can be a fashionable stance until your neighbors start getting invaded.

The good old days.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 8:42pm

 R_P wrote:
It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are other countries that have their own "national interests" that are not going to be subservient to yours. That's understanding, not advocacy.

Facile straw men and red herrings won't help you sell overpriced and overrated "American Power™." Maybe still with some domestically and with some allies, but it comes with a lot of strings attached.

Ukraine is a country. With "national interests"—like not being invaded. Like not having its territory seized in a war of conquest. That just doesn't seem to register for you. Why is that?
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:31pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
et voilá!! 

It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:29pm

 R_P wrote:

You clearly have the need. Being against hegemony would be non-neutral. As would being in favour.


et voilá!!  

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