[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

Wordle - daily game - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Aug 14, 2022 - 10:26pm
 
• • •  What's For Dinner ? • • •  - Manbird - Aug 14, 2022 - 8:40pm
 
Trump - kcar - Aug 14, 2022 - 7:43pm
 
RightWingNutZ - Red_Dragon - Aug 14, 2022 - 3:36pm
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - Manbird - Aug 14, 2022 - 2:14pm
 
COVID-19 - R_P - Aug 14, 2022 - 1:31pm
 
RPeep News You Should Know - islander - Aug 14, 2022 - 1:17pm
 
Automotive Lust - R_P - Aug 14, 2022 - 11:34am
 
Fix My Car - GeneP59 - Aug 14, 2022 - 10:45am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - GeneP59 - Aug 14, 2022 - 10:38am
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - acaciascapes - Aug 14, 2022 - 9:20am
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Aug 14, 2022 - 8:44am
 
Words that should be put on the substitutes bench for a year - oldviolin - Aug 14, 2022 - 7:55am
 
Counting with Pictures - Proclivities - Aug 14, 2022 - 7:55am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - miamizsun - Aug 14, 2022 - 7:41am
 
DARWIN AWARDS! - POST YOUR NOMINATION! - Coaxial - Aug 13, 2022 - 5:03pm
 
China - R_P - Aug 13, 2022 - 3:29pm
 
Brian Eno - R_P - Aug 13, 2022 - 1:23pm
 
Name My Band - oldviolin - Aug 13, 2022 - 11:15am
 
Democratic Party - Red_Dragon - Aug 13, 2022 - 8:38am
 
Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - Coaxial - Aug 13, 2022 - 7:03am
 
Health Care - miamizsun - Aug 13, 2022 - 6:37am
 
Sweet horrible irony. - miamizsun - Aug 13, 2022 - 6:32am
 
What is the meaning of this? - oldviolin - Aug 12, 2022 - 3:33pm
 
Baseball, anyone? - GeneP59 - Aug 12, 2022 - 12:59pm
 
Abiogenesis! - R_P - Aug 12, 2022 - 12:02pm
 
PASS THE BEER - kcar - Aug 12, 2022 - 11:33am
 
It's the economy stupid. - rgio - Aug 12, 2022 - 9:06am
 
What's Precious and Sacred to Islam? - Red_Dragon - Aug 12, 2022 - 8:38am
 
Floyd forum - Proclivities - Aug 12, 2022 - 8:12am
 
Today in History - sunybuny - Aug 12, 2022 - 6:46am
 
So... what's been happening here lately? - sunybuny - Aug 12, 2022 - 5:44am
 
Time to lawyer up! - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Aug 11, 2022 - 10:52pm
 
Climate Change - Red_Dragon - Aug 11, 2022 - 5:11pm
 
Ukraine - black321 - Aug 11, 2022 - 2:31pm
 
Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see - Proclivities - Aug 11, 2022 - 10:35am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Aug 11, 2022 - 10:04am
 
How to Use RP? - kcar - Aug 11, 2022 - 9:53am
 
Republican Party - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Aug 11, 2022 - 9:20am
 
Got Road Rage? - Red_Dragon - Aug 11, 2022 - 8:12am
 
Russia - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Aug 11, 2022 - 7:52am
 
>>>>>>Knitted - Antigone - Aug 11, 2022 - 2:37am
 
The Obituary Page - ScottFromWyoming - Aug 10, 2022 - 9:34pm
 
India - Red_Dragon - Aug 10, 2022 - 4:36pm
 
godnarb: the Lunchurch - ScottFromWyoming - Aug 10, 2022 - 11:24am
 
Peace - thisbody - Aug 10, 2022 - 8:59am
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - black321 - Aug 10, 2022 - 7:01am
 
Derplahoma! - sunybuny - Aug 10, 2022 - 6:02am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - GeneP59 - Aug 9, 2022 - 4:37pm
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - KurtfromLaQuinta - Aug 9, 2022 - 4:19pm
 
MQA Stream Coming to BLUOS - robin2 - Aug 9, 2022 - 11:47am
 
RPeeps who would have a sense of humor if they were not s... - miamizsun - Aug 9, 2022 - 10:14am
 
Things that make you happy - GeneP59 - Aug 9, 2022 - 8:47am
 
unusual time signatures - ScottFromWyoming - Aug 9, 2022 - 8:26am
 
Best/worst white reggae/ska/rcksteady - thisbody - Aug 9, 2022 - 6:54am
 
More reggae, less Marley please - thisbody - Aug 9, 2022 - 6:48am
 
Media Bias - Red_Dragon - Aug 9, 2022 - 6:34am
 
Things Forgotten. - Steely_D - Aug 8, 2022 - 10:24pm
 
Things You Thought Today - oldviolin - Aug 8, 2022 - 7:28pm
 
Cheney, Dick - ScottFromWyoming - Aug 8, 2022 - 10:36am
 
Joe Biden - ScottFromWyoming - Aug 8, 2022 - 10:18am
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - GeneP59 - Aug 8, 2022 - 9:56am
 
Food - ScottFromWyoming - Aug 8, 2022 - 9:56am
 
John Lennon's Jukebox - thisbody - Aug 8, 2022 - 4:55am
 
Portishead S. O. S. - geoff_morphini - Aug 7, 2022 - 10:43pm
 
Environment - Red_Dragon - Aug 7, 2022 - 6:51pm
 
Ridiculous or Funny Spam - Steely_D - Aug 7, 2022 - 10:47am
 
Tech & Science - Red_Dragon - Aug 6, 2022 - 3:17pm
 
The Abortion Wars - black321 - Aug 6, 2022 - 8:39am
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - BlueHeronDruid - Aug 5, 2022 - 8:37pm
 
Live Music - oldviolin - Aug 5, 2022 - 12:58pm
 
Guns - Red_Dragon - Aug 5, 2022 - 10:09am
 
Least Successful Phishing Scams - geoff_morphini - Aug 5, 2022 - 9:19am
 
Graphs, Charts & Maps - miamizsun - Aug 5, 2022 - 7:09am
 
Favorite Flags - Proclivities - Aug 5, 2022 - 6:33am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 35, 36, 37  Next
Post to this Topic
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 7:36am

 Lazy8 wrote:

This is a familiar pattern: any call for immigration reform is denounced as "open borders" and that shuts down the debate, like crying "racism!" It's what you do when you don't have an answer.

Obama isn't arguing with Joe Biden in that clip, he's arguing with people like me—who actually advocate for open borders. Both he and Biden acquiesced to the demands of the border security complex, a set of rogue agencies within the government that have grown so powerful they transcend the executive and legislative branches. Obama wasn't known as the Deporter In Chief for nothin', and Biden is hot on his heels.

So the headline is dishonest, as this debate usually is. And as long as the debate stays dishonest we will continue arguing about fake issues while the real one festers.

Deep State? 


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 7:29am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Obama now calls open-borders immigration policy ‘unsustainable’ as Biden’s ‘heartbreaking’ migrant crisis worsens

 
 
"Immigration is tough. It always has been because, on the one hand, I think we are naturally a people that wants to help others. And we see tragedy and hardship and families that are desperately trying to get here so that their kids are safe, and they're in some cases fleeing violence or catastrophe," Obama said. "At the same time, we're a nation state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable."

This is a familiar pattern: any call for immigration reform is denounced as "open borders" and that shuts down the debate, like crying "racism!" It's what you do when you don't have an answer.

Obama isn't arguing with Joe Biden in that clip, he's arguing with people like me—who actually advocate for open borders. Both he and Biden acquiesced to the demands of the border security complex, a set of rogue agencies within the government that have grown so powerful they transcend the executive and legislative branches. Obama wasn't known as the Deporter In Chief for nothin', and Biden is hot on his heels.

So the headline is dishonest, as this debate usually is. And as long as the debate stays dishonest we will continue arguing about fake issues while the real one festers.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 7:28am

NOTE: Moved to appropriate thread -
 kurtster wrote:


islander wrote: kurtster wrote:
You've really got to work on your dossier updates. I do believe that immigration should be controlled by a legal process. You would probably be appalled at what I think qualifies people for visas and citizenship though.


You have consistently been against any merit based requirements and I have never heard you say what determining factors you are for, in this regard.

As with the last sentence you hide behind your enigmatic facade and refuse to go on record and state your position(s). As usual.

You have consistently been against any merit based requirements and I have never heard you say what determining factors you are for, in this regard.

As with the last sentence you hide behind your enigmatic facade and refuse to go on record and state your position(s).  As usual.

Well a comprehensive immigration policy is way too much for a forum post. But here's a few thoughts:
1. We need a couple classes of immigration based on circumstances.  
1a- People fleeing violence/oppression pretty much get in. They would need relatives to support them, and/or would have to enter a peace corps styled program to get training or alignment with existing skills for job opportunities. They would be eligible for benefits and full citizenship after a short period of time and some formal process. 
1b - People looking to voluntarily relocate would have to apply, but would pretty much get in with a program similar to the 1a system. If you could prove you had sufficient resources you could skip the peace corps bit, but your benefits would be restricted (this is how a lot of the world approaches the problem). There would be some pretty limited restrictions if they wanted to go into a field that was already saturated with workers, but this would be pretty rare.

 2. Policies should be aligned with letting productive people in. People seeking opportunities who have resources (family support systems, fat bank accounts, big brains and corporate backers) get in because they are going to help us grow. 

3. We should also have a big opening for humanitarian support. We are good people and we can do this. We already throw away a lot of money to corrupt governments under this auspice, but it mostly gets wasted. We can waste that money just fine here with our own corrupt government and probably have a better result. 

So yes, merit. But also humanitarian. I just think we disagree on what constitutes merit. I don't think heritage/lineage has anything to do with it.
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 6:24am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Obama now calls open-borders immigration policy ‘unsustainable’ as Biden’s ‘heartbreaking’ migrant crisis worsens

 
 
"Immigration is tough. It always has been because, on the one hand, I think we are naturally a people that wants to help others. And we see tragedy and hardship and families that are desperately trying to get here so that their kids are safe, and they're in some cases fleeing violence or catastrophe," Obama said. "At the same time, we're a nation state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable."


That quote borders on apolitical honesty.
No pun intended...
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 6:22am

 miamizsun wrote:


humble pie, it's been a lifelong pursuit
but the recipe has been tweaked in the valleys and never tasted better on the peaks


Spoken like an experienced practitioner...
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 6:09am

Obama now calls open-borders immigration policy ‘unsustainable’ as Biden’s ‘heartbreaking’ migrant crisis worsens

 
 
"Immigration is tough. It always has been because, on the one hand, I think we are naturally a people that wants to help others. And we see tragedy and hardship and families that are desperately trying to get here so that their kids are safe, and they're in some cases fleeing violence or catastrophe," Obama said. "At the same time, we're a nation state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable."
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 3:24am

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 9:01am

 oldviolin wrote:

Is that a Blackbird pie or an empty sky pie? Because if it is...
{#Wink}


humble pie, it's been a lifelong pursuit
but the recipe has been tweaked in the valleys and never tasted better on the peaks
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 6:59am

 miamizsun wrote:


usually intellectual honesty and politicians are polar opposites?
maybe people tend to get hung up on zero sum economics?
i'll always help you bake more pie, especially if i get a slice

 
Is that a Blackbird pie or an empty sky pie? Because if it is...{#Wink}
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 6:47am

 black321 wrote:
 islander wrote:
Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


Not that I don't mostly agree with both of you, but there are the two obvious "threats:" (1) they'll take my job, and (2) they'll use up our benefits (take my tax $).  In the aggregate, neither of these hold water, but the latter might at least be ceremonially addressed. 
 

usually intellectual honesty and politicians are polar opposites?
maybe people tend to get hung up on zero sum economics?
i'll always help you bake more pie, especially if i get a slice

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 6:25am

 islander wrote:


Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


Not that I don't mostly agree with both of you, but there are the two obvious "threats:" (1) they'll take my job, and (2) they'll use up our benefits (take my tax $).  In the aggregate, neither of these hold water, but the latter might at least be ceremonially addressed. 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 6:36pm

 islander wrote:


Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


They are all nonsense.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 6:27pm

 islander wrote:


Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


The Mason-Dixon Line is probably a better analogy
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 7:45pm

 miamizsun wrote:


i'll throw some spaghetti/random thoughts against the wall and see what sticks:
i can agree, we have way too many rules
what? tens of thousands of pages, most of it nebulous ineffective silliness
if we tried to enforce all of the laws/regs we'd have way more folks caged up
that takes a lot of resources and produces ill will/animosity/non-participation
in the long run, authoritarian control freaks always resort to violence and eventually go down in flames

for me this is a human rights issue

people always vote and act out of perceived self interest - usually with their money and/or their feet
we can have a border, but we don't need a wall (a metaphor for protection?)

what we need is an incentive system for people to come in and register, get screened for communicable diseases, criminal history, etc.
maybe set some basic rules for participation in our system (social security, medicare, driver's licenses, whatever)
if we want to manage a system/data we need to be able to measure it
legalize and decriminalize? yes - moralize and demonize? no
remember, the desired outcome is peaceful and productive human flourishing








Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 3:44pm

 Ohmsen wrote:

There was a time, when I badly wanted to immigrate to the US, back in 1991-93. .....


Well, at least for most white people, the USA had a terrific run in the post-war period.

The mid to late 1990s under the Clinton leadership figured amongst the best years.   The early 1990s would have been a great period to immigrate to the USA.   Academics and scientists — mostly liberal ya know — were really keen to move to the USA and work.  

The Soviet Union had imploded, the USA emerged victorious without firing a direct shot at the Soviet Union.  Prior to Clinton being elected president, the previous President Bush, Sr. had pulled off the USA's only truly effective overseas military intervention in the entire post-war period. Under Bush Sr., the USA invaded Kuwait, kicked out Iraq and then quickly withdrew.

And then US foreign policy choices caught up and produced the Sept. 11th attacks and then America revealed its true colours:  racist trash terrorist killers.  

Similar to the way the former European colonial empires imploded, the USA has been going down hill since: violent colonial conflict.  
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 8:27am

 miamizsun wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

I am all for immigration reform.  Let's change the laws and live with them, whatever the final decision is.  This is not the first time I have said this.  I have said this all along since I've been here.

But, it doesn't matter because the laws are ignored by those who are in charge of enforcing them.

New laws will still be ignored and chaos wins, again ...

That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.


i'll throw some spaghetti/random thoughts against the wall and see what sticks:
i can agree, we have way too many rules
what? tens of thousands of pages, most of it nebulous ineffective silliness
if we tried to enforce all of the laws/regs we'd have way more folks caged up
that takes a lot of resources and produces ill will/animosity/non-participation
in the long run, authoritarian control freaks always resort to violence and eventually go down in flames

for me this is a human rights issue
people always vote and act out of perceived self interest - usually with their money and/or their feet
we can have a border, but we don't need a wall (a metaphor for protection?)
what we need is an incentive system for people to come in and register, get screened for communicable diseases, criminal history, etc.
maybe set some basic rules for participation in our system (social security, medicare, driver's licenses, whatever)
if we want to manage a system/data we need to be able to measure it
legalize and decriminalize? yes - moralize and demonize? no
remember, the desired outcome is peaceful and productive human flourishing



 
I'm with you on this.  The only thing I disagree with is about the wall.  To me it is a physical barrier that does not discriminate (and does work as intended) that says we have rules that are more than just words.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 7:48am

 haresfur wrote:


No, the problem with trump is that he used abject cruelty as a form of terrorism.

Trump would easily dehumanize and demonize illegal immigrants and refugees.   He was a racist fear monger.   
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 7:14am

 kurtster wrote:

I am all for immigration reform.  Let's change the laws and live with them, whatever the final decision is.  This is not the first time I have said this.  I have said this all along since I've been here.

But, it doesn't matter because the laws are ignored by those who are in charge of enforcing them.

New laws will still be ignored and chaos wins, again ...

That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.


i'll throw some spaghetti/random thoughts against the wall and see what sticks:
i can agree, we have way too many rules
what? tens of thousands of pages, most of it nebulous ineffective silliness
if we tried to enforce all of the laws/regs we'd have way more folks caged up
that takes a lot of resources and produces ill will/animosity/non-participation
in the long run, authoritarian control freaks always resort to violence and eventually go down in flames

for me this is a human rights issue
people always vote and act out of perceived self interest - usually with their money and/or their feet
we can have a border, but we don't need a wall (a metaphor for protection?)
what we need is an incentive system for people to come in and register, get screened for communicable diseases, criminal history, etc.
maybe set some basic rules for participation in our system (social security, medicare, driver's licenses, whatever)
if we want to manage a system/data we need to be able to measure it
legalize and decriminalize? yes - moralize and demonize? no
remember, the desired outcome is peaceful and productive human flourishing





R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 25, 2021 - 6:05pm

 kurtster wrote:
And the undoing of the wall leading to the present chaos at the border, etc.

Curiously this part was not present in your's but is in mine, although it certainly has not been updated recently because I am sure that the numbers would be much different now.

Fake polls...
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 25, 2021 - 5:59pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.

Hence the big beautiful wall, etc. 
 
And the undoing of the wall leading to the present chaos at the border, etc.

Curiously this part was not present in your's but is in mine, although it certainly has not been updated recently because I am sure that the numbers would be much different now.

Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 35, 36, 37  Next