[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

What are you listening to now? - KMH - Jan 25, 2022 - 2:09pm
 
What is the meaning of this? - oldviolin - Jan 25, 2022 - 2:01pm
 
Tax the Rich! - islander - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:54pm
 
Won’t support you until - oldviolin - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:51pm
 
What Did You Do Today? - Bill_J - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:33pm
 
Wordle - daily game - oldviolin - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:29pm
 
Russia - R_P - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:28pm
 
Neil Young - Red_Dragon - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:22pm
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - VV - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:15pm
 
Submissions is broken - oldviolin - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:12pm
 
Audio Processing - BillG - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:07pm
 
New Music - R_P - Jan 25, 2022 - 1:04pm
 
Headphones for the hard of hearing? - westslope - Jan 25, 2022 - 12:27pm
 
Got a good recipe you care to share ??? - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 25, 2022 - 11:43am
 
Name My Band - Bill_J - Jan 25, 2022 - 8:46am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jan 25, 2022 - 8:29am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - oldviolin - Jan 25, 2022 - 8:17am
 
Bitcoin - rgio - Jan 25, 2022 - 5:48am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - miamizsun - Jan 25, 2022 - 5:21am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - miamizsun - Jan 25, 2022 - 4:50am
 
Europe - Ohmsen - Jan 25, 2022 - 2:16am
 
Things You Thought Today - haresfur - Jan 24, 2022 - 11:14pm
 
Trump - westslope - Jan 24, 2022 - 4:59pm
 
Weather Out Your Window - Manbird - Jan 24, 2022 - 2:34pm
 
Evolution! - R_P - Jan 24, 2022 - 2:11pm
 
Happy Birthday! - Manbird - Jan 24, 2022 - 2:07pm
 
France - Ohmsen - Jan 24, 2022 - 11:07am
 
COVID-19 - R_P - Jan 24, 2022 - 11:05am
 
Joe Biden - Steely_D - Jan 24, 2022 - 9:59am
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jan 24, 2022 - 9:38am
 
Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - islander - Jan 24, 2022 - 6:53am
 
Germany - westslope - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:24pm
 
Republican Party - Steely_D - Jan 23, 2022 - 7:54pm
 
The Obituary Page - Bill_J - Jan 23, 2022 - 6:20pm
 
The Dragons' Roost - triskele - Jan 23, 2022 - 2:40pm
 
Jimi Hendrix Memorial - Ohmsen - Jan 23, 2022 - 1:52pm
 
Pictures I've taken and like. No promises! - oldviolin - Jan 23, 2022 - 12:34pm
 
Australia and New Zealand Music - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:45am
 
Counting with Pictures - Proclivities - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:37am
 
Play the Blues - Ohmsen - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:35am
 
The war on funk is over! - Ohmsen - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:22am
 
Classical? - oldviolin - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:16am
 
I play the drums... - Ohmsen - Jan 23, 2022 - 11:01am
 
Jam! (why should a song stop) - Ohmsen - Jan 23, 2022 - 10:12am
 
What Makes You Sad? - geoff_morphini - Jan 23, 2022 - 10:12am
 
Today in History - GeneP59 - Jan 22, 2022 - 8:28pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - oldviolin - Jan 22, 2022 - 4:56pm
 
The Dragon's Roots - triskele - Jan 22, 2022 - 3:30pm
 
Lyrics that are stuck in your head today... - Manbird - Jan 22, 2022 - 1:46pm
 
A motivational quote - GeneP59 - Jan 22, 2022 - 11:40am
 
What are you doing RIGHT NOW? - GeneP59 - Jan 22, 2022 - 11:15am
 
Make Scott laugh - Manbird - Jan 22, 2022 - 10:07am
 
ptooey Must Go! - islander - Jan 22, 2022 - 7:59am
 
• • • What Makes You Happy? • • •  - oldviolin - Jan 21, 2022 - 10:42pm
 
Kids say the funniest things - oldviolin - Jan 21, 2022 - 9:42pm
 
Star Trek - Manbird - Jan 21, 2022 - 8:46pm
 
Thank You Radio Paradise. - Manbird - Jan 21, 2022 - 6:14pm
 
DQ (as in 'Daily Quote') - Manbird - Jan 21, 2022 - 4:21pm
 
RightWingNutZ - westslope - Jan 21, 2022 - 4:21pm
 
Coffee - Manbird - Jan 21, 2022 - 2:31pm
 
Graphic designers, ho's! - Manbird - Jan 21, 2022 - 12:22pm
 
Election Predictions - miamizsun - Jan 21, 2022 - 6:20am
 
Florida - miamizsun - Jan 21, 2022 - 6:09am
 
how do you feel right now? - kurtster - Jan 20, 2022 - 10:50pm
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - Proclivities - Jan 20, 2022 - 1:54pm
 
let it spin!! - oldviolin - Jan 20, 2022 - 11:41am
 
Advice? - black321 - Jan 20, 2022 - 11:29am
 
Race in America - R_P - Jan 20, 2022 - 10:45am
 
2020 Elections - Red_Dragon - Jan 20, 2022 - 10:26am
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - Ohmsen - Jan 20, 2022 - 9:09am
 
Comics! - Proclivities - Jan 20, 2022 - 7:09am
 
TEXAS - Red_Dragon - Jan 20, 2022 - 7:09am
 
Geeky Jokes - nu11 - Jan 20, 2022 - 6:58am
 
Anti-War - Ohmsen - Jan 20, 2022 - 5:41am
 
Afghanistan - Ohmsen - Jan 20, 2022 - 5:19am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 35, 36, 37  Next
Post to this Topic
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 7:28am

NOTE: Moved to appropriate thread -
 kurtster wrote:


islander wrote: kurtster wrote:
You've really got to work on your dossier updates. I do believe that immigration should be controlled by a legal process. You would probably be appalled at what I think qualifies people for visas and citizenship though.


You have consistently been against any merit based requirements and I have never heard you say what determining factors you are for, in this regard.

As with the last sentence you hide behind your enigmatic facade and refuse to go on record and state your position(s). As usual.

You have consistently been against any merit based requirements and I have never heard you say what determining factors you are for, in this regard.

As with the last sentence you hide behind your enigmatic facade and refuse to go on record and state your position(s).  As usual.

Well a comprehensive immigration policy is way too much for a forum post. But here's a few thoughts:
1. We need a couple classes of immigration based on circumstances.  
1a- People fleeing violence/oppression pretty much get in. They would need relatives to support them, and/or would have to enter a peace corps styled program to get training or alignment with existing skills for job opportunities. They would be eligible for benefits and full citizenship after a short period of time and some formal process. 
1b - People looking to voluntarily relocate would have to apply, but would pretty much get in with a program similar to the 1a system. If you could prove you had sufficient resources you could skip the peace corps bit, but your benefits would be restricted (this is how a lot of the world approaches the problem). There would be some pretty limited restrictions if they wanted to go into a field that was already saturated with workers, but this would be pretty rare.

 2. Policies should be aligned with letting productive people in. People seeking opportunities who have resources (family support systems, fat bank accounts, big brains and corporate backers) get in because they are going to help us grow. 

3. We should also have a big opening for humanitarian support. We are good people and we can do this. We already throw away a lot of money to corrupt governments under this auspice, but it mostly gets wasted. We can waste that money just fine here with our own corrupt government and probably have a better result. 

So yes, merit. But also humanitarian. I just think we disagree on what constitutes merit. I don't think heritage/lineage has anything to do with it.
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 6:24am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Obama now calls open-borders immigration policy ‘unsustainable’ as Biden’s ‘heartbreaking’ migrant crisis worsens

 
 
"Immigration is tough. It always has been because, on the one hand, I think we are naturally a people that wants to help others. And we see tragedy and hardship and families that are desperately trying to get here so that their kids are safe, and they're in some cases fleeing violence or catastrophe," Obama said. "At the same time, we're a nation state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable."


That quote borders on apolitical honesty.
No pun intended...
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 6:22am

 miamizsun wrote:


humble pie, it's been a lifelong pursuit
but the recipe has been tweaked in the valleys and never tasted better on the peaks


Spoken like an experienced practitioner...
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 6:09am

Obama now calls open-borders immigration policy ‘unsustainable’ as Biden’s ‘heartbreaking’ migrant crisis worsens

 
 
"Immigration is tough. It always has been because, on the one hand, I think we are naturally a people that wants to help others. And we see tragedy and hardship and families that are desperately trying to get here so that their kids are safe, and they're in some cases fleeing violence or catastrophe," Obama said. "At the same time, we're a nation state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable."
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 3:24am

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 9:01am

 oldviolin wrote:

Is that a Blackbird pie or an empty sky pie? Because if it is...
{#Wink}


humble pie, it's been a lifelong pursuit
but the recipe has been tweaked in the valleys and never tasted better on the peaks
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 6:59am

 miamizsun wrote:


usually intellectual honesty and politicians are polar opposites?
maybe people tend to get hung up on zero sum economics?
i'll always help you bake more pie, especially if i get a slice

 
Is that a Blackbird pie or an empty sky pie? Because if it is...{#Wink}
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 6:47am

 black321 wrote:
 islander wrote:
Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


Not that I don't mostly agree with both of you, but there are the two obvious "threats:" (1) they'll take my job, and (2) they'll use up our benefits (take my tax $).  In the aggregate, neither of these hold water, but the latter might at least be ceremonially addressed. 
 

usually intellectual honesty and politicians are polar opposites?
maybe people tend to get hung up on zero sum economics?
i'll always help you bake more pie, especially if i get a slice

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 6:25am

 islander wrote:


Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


Not that I don't mostly agree with both of you, but there are the two obvious "threats:" (1) they'll take my job, and (2) they'll use up our benefits (take my tax $).  In the aggregate, neither of these hold water, but the latter might at least be ceremonially addressed. 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 6:36pm

 islander wrote:


Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


They are all nonsense.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 6:27pm

 islander wrote:


Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?


The Mason-Dixon Line is probably a better analogy
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 7:45pm

 miamizsun wrote:


i'll throw some spaghetti/random thoughts against the wall and see what sticks:
i can agree, we have way too many rules
what? tens of thousands of pages, most of it nebulous ineffective silliness
if we tried to enforce all of the laws/regs we'd have way more folks caged up
that takes a lot of resources and produces ill will/animosity/non-participation
in the long run, authoritarian control freaks always resort to violence and eventually go down in flames

for me this is a human rights issue

people always vote and act out of perceived self interest - usually with their money and/or their feet
we can have a border, but we don't need a wall (a metaphor for protection?)

what we need is an incentive system for people to come in and register, get screened for communicable diseases, criminal history, etc.
maybe set some basic rules for participation in our system (social security, medicare, driver's licenses, whatever)
if we want to manage a system/data we need to be able to measure it
legalize and decriminalize? yes - moralize and demonize? no
remember, the desired outcome is peaceful and productive human flourishing








Preach.  Borders are just imaginary lines around place we agree on some basic principals. Why is the border between Texas and Mexico so much more threatening than the border between California and Nevada?
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 3:44pm

 Ohmsen wrote:

There was a time, when I badly wanted to immigrate to the US, back in 1991-93. .....


Well, at least for most white people, the USA had a terrific run in the post-war period.

The mid to late 1990s under the Clinton leadership figured amongst the best years.   The early 1990s would have been a great period to immigrate to the USA.   Academics and scientists — mostly liberal ya know — were really keen to move to the USA and work.  

The Soviet Union had imploded, the USA emerged victorious without firing a direct shot at the Soviet Union.  Prior to Clinton being elected president, the previous President Bush, Sr. had pulled off the USA's only truly effective overseas military intervention in the entire post-war period. Under Bush Sr., the USA invaded Kuwait, kicked out Iraq and then quickly withdrew.

And then US foreign policy choices caught up and produced the Sept. 11th attacks and then America revealed its true colours:  racist trash terrorist killers.  

Similar to the way the former European colonial empires imploded, the USA has been going down hill since: violent colonial conflict.  
Ohmsen

Ohmsen Avatar

Location: Over the rainbow
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 1:42pm

There was a time, when I badly wanted to immigrate to the US, back in 1991-93. It was, after I'd spent a year-long internship as a social worker in a (private) correctional facility (halfway-house) in AZ on a student-exchange visa. Immigration laws did not allow me, however, although the company I worked for did show their willingness to keep me hired in their own writing. As per law then, they'd have to give proof, that they couldn't hire a US citizen who'd be able to do the same job I did, which of course, didn't work out. 
I was hooked to the open-mindedness of America, the most liberal country in my world-view, back then. 
It came at me in the form of music and cuisine. (I'd got hooked to burritos, enchiladas, and fajita platters.)
Living in Tempe, the PHX metropolitan area's hotbed for student life, and live music - one could listen to bands playing in bars that would usually fill stadiums, back in Europe on a daily basis - I just loved the heck out of it. 
My wishes didn't come true.
Today, I seriously doubt I still wanted to live there. I have come to accept things after a few months/ years (including engaging in a then 'famous' green-card lottery). Another thing that was in my head back then was, why did I always have to keep a tennis-racket under my bed as a potential club? The war in the streets was quite real, as when doing 'grounds checks' at work at night times, there were occasional shootings in the same street on a regular basis... on the apartment complex, a neighbor got killed by burglars, etc. The war in the streets happened to be a great antagonist to my personal wanting to live in America, already back then.
On a karmic level, and in hindsight, I must have been destined to get back to where I was born to make my own peace with life and the world... (which would be another story).

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 8:27am

 miamizsun wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

I am all for immigration reform.  Let's change the laws and live with them, whatever the final decision is.  This is not the first time I have said this.  I have said this all along since I've been here.

But, it doesn't matter because the laws are ignored by those who are in charge of enforcing them.

New laws will still be ignored and chaos wins, again ...

That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.


i'll throw some spaghetti/random thoughts against the wall and see what sticks:
i can agree, we have way too many rules
what? tens of thousands of pages, most of it nebulous ineffective silliness
if we tried to enforce all of the laws/regs we'd have way more folks caged up
that takes a lot of resources and produces ill will/animosity/non-participation
in the long run, authoritarian control freaks always resort to violence and eventually go down in flames

for me this is a human rights issue
people always vote and act out of perceived self interest - usually with their money and/or their feet
we can have a border, but we don't need a wall (a metaphor for protection?)
what we need is an incentive system for people to come in and register, get screened for communicable diseases, criminal history, etc.
maybe set some basic rules for participation in our system (social security, medicare, driver's licenses, whatever)
if we want to manage a system/data we need to be able to measure it
legalize and decriminalize? yes - moralize and demonize? no
remember, the desired outcome is peaceful and productive human flourishing



 
I'm with you on this.  The only thing I disagree with is about the wall.  To me it is a physical barrier that does not discriminate (and does work as intended) that says we have rules that are more than just words.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 7:48am

 haresfur wrote:


No, the problem with trump is that he used abject cruelty as a form of terrorism.

Trump would easily dehumanize and demonize illegal immigrants and refugees.   He was a racist fear monger.   
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 7:14am

 kurtster wrote:

I am all for immigration reform.  Let's change the laws and live with them, whatever the final decision is.  This is not the first time I have said this.  I have said this all along since I've been here.

But, it doesn't matter because the laws are ignored by those who are in charge of enforcing them.

New laws will still be ignored and chaos wins, again ...

That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.


i'll throw some spaghetti/random thoughts against the wall and see what sticks:
i can agree, we have way too many rules
what? tens of thousands of pages, most of it nebulous ineffective silliness
if we tried to enforce all of the laws/regs we'd have way more folks caged up
that takes a lot of resources and produces ill will/animosity/non-participation
in the long run, authoritarian control freaks always resort to violence and eventually go down in flames

for me this is a human rights issue
people always vote and act out of perceived self interest - usually with their money and/or their feet
we can have a border, but we don't need a wall (a metaphor for protection?)
what we need is an incentive system for people to come in and register, get screened for communicable diseases, criminal history, etc.
maybe set some basic rules for participation in our system (social security, medicare, driver's licenses, whatever)
if we want to manage a system/data we need to be able to measure it
legalize and decriminalize? yes - moralize and demonize? no
remember, the desired outcome is peaceful and productive human flourishing





R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 25, 2021 - 6:05pm

 kurtster wrote:
And the undoing of the wall leading to the present chaos at the border, etc.

Curiously this part was not present in your's but is in mine, although it certainly has not been updated recently because I am sure that the numbers would be much different now.

Fake polls...
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 25, 2021 - 5:59pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.

Hence the big beautiful wall, etc. 
 
And the undoing of the wall leading to the present chaos at the border, etc.

Curiously this part was not present in your's but is in mine, although it certainly has not been updated recently because I am sure that the numbers would be much different now.

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 25, 2021 - 4:15pm

 kurtster wrote:
That was the problem with Trump.  He actually tried to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.

Hence the big beautiful wall, etc. 
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 35, 36, 37  Next