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swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 5:26pm

 OCDHG wrote:

See, that's cool and all, and reading this makes it sound like the final show was really great or something.   It was heavy-handed and clumsy in my opinion.  It left me feeling dull and annoyed— I mean, half of it was replay of old scenes during the 'reunions'... seemed really lazy because of how lengthy those replays were.  So maybe the execution was the problem (for me), because the concept is pretty neat.  I dunno.  Thanks for digging this up tho!  Good stuff.
I really did enjoy all six years of this show, though.  Didn't love the final season.  Glad to see it go at the appropriate time, but sad its gone!
 
I kinda felt that way until they got to the church. The church scene tweaked me a bit. I've been thinking about my life and my connections since last night. WTF am I here anyway? 


DownHomeGirl

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 5:22pm

 dmax wrote:
some guy at the Bad Robot site who writes for the show wrote:
 
See, that's cool and all, and reading this makes it sound like the final show was really great or something.   It was heavy-handed and clumsy in my opinion.  It left me feeling dull and annoyed— I mean, half of it was replay of old scenes during the 'reunions'... seemed really lazy because of how lengthy those replays were.  So maybe the execution was the problem (for me), because the concept is pretty neat.  I dunno.  Thanks for digging this up tho!  Good stuff.
I really did enjoy all six years of this show, though.  Didn't love the final season.  Glad to see it go at the appropriate time, but sad its gone!

swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 5:19pm

 kurtster wrote:

You just didn't watch enough Dr. Who, the original series that is ...
 
Prolly.
swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 5:19pm

 dmax wrote:
some guy at the Bad Robot site who writes for the show wrote:

Thanks.
kurtster

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 5:06pm

 swell_sailor wrote:

The time thing is hard to wrap my mind around. I'm having trouble resolving the idea that some died after Jack, yet Jack just showed up and they were already there. Was someone the catalyst? Was Desmond the final piece of the puzzle? Was it Hurley and Ben? Is time totally irrelevant? If so, are they at once dead and alive?

All that said, this could have been a huge leap forward in time (on earth) if Hurley was the last one and he lived as long as Jacob or Richard.  Meanwhile, everyone is waiting for the big parteh.

 
You just didn't watch enough Dr. Who, the original series that is ...

(former member)

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 5:03pm

some guy at the Bad Robot site who writes for the show wrote:
Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John Adam's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ... :devil:

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him — even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma — which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector — I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...
Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least — because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events — not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith — and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died — some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch — basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot —- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church — but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder — the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story — even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.



swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 1:42pm

 dmax wrote:


In this case, they were finished living life. Christian made it clear that all these people had died, some before Jack and some after.
 
The time thing is hard to wrap my mind around. I'm having trouble resolving the idea that some died after Jack, yet Jack just showed up and they were already there. Was someone the catalyst? Was Desmond the final piece of the puzzle? Was it Hurley and Ben? Is time totally irrelevant? If so, are they at once dead and alive?

All that said, this could have been a huge leap forward in time (on earth) if Hurley was the last one and he lived as long as Jacob or Richard.  Meanwhile, everyone is waiting for the big parteh.


(former member)

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 1:27pm

 swell_sailor wrote:

For me, characterizing them as "finally dead" misses the point. Eternity doesn't know finally, and their souls being present at Jacks death doesn't mean they've finished living life as we know it.
 

In this case, they were finished living life. Christian made it clear that all these people had died, some before Jack and some after.
lily34

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 12:29pm

 JrzyTmata wrote:

LOST re-enacted by cats in 1 minute


 


i love this.

JrzyTmata

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 12:25pm


LOST re-enacted by cats in 1 minute



swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 12:18pm

Jack was the reluctant hero. He always tried to do the right thing, although he didn't always know what the right thing was. The connections he made on the island, and the impact he had on others, made it the most significant period of his life. Before he came to the island he was lost, as were the others who spent time there. The final scene had him partying with those who had become so important to him. We should all be so lucky to have made so many connections, and made a difference in the lives of so many others. 


swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 12:10pm

 dmax wrote:
gandalf's summary was right. So many people are going "so they were all dead from the beginning"? But that's not it at all!
In fact, the more mind-blowing portion was Ben telling Hurley he was a great #1, and Hurley saying Ben was a great #2. They could've potentially have guarded the island for millenia, like Jacob/Richard. And now they're finally dead and all gathering together. People like Ana Lucia "weren't ready yet."

Why didn't Ben go in? Maybe he wasn't allowed into heaven, right?
—-
So, it was just another great maneuver by the writers. We had

Real time, and then it was interspersed with

Flash-backs, then they faked us out and threw in

Flash-forwards

and finally we thought it was contemporaneous real time but it was

Flash-Eternity....

{#Notworthy}

 
For me, characterizing them as "finally dead" misses the point. Eternity doesn't know finally, and their souls being present at Jacks death doesn't mean they've finished living life as we know it.

Just my take.


(former member)

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 10:26am

gandalf's summary was right. So many people are going "so they were all dead from the beginning"? But that's not it at all!
In fact, the more mind-blowing portion was Ben telling Hurley he was a great #1, and Hurley saying Ben was a great #2. They could've potentially have guarded the island for millenia, like Jacob/Richard. And now they're finally dead and all gathering together. People like Ana Lucia "weren't ready yet."

Why didn't Ben go in? Maybe he wasn't allowed into heaven, right?
—-
So, it was just another great maneuver by the writers. We had

Real time, and then it was interspersed with

Flash-backs, then they faked us out and threw in

Flash-forwards

and finally we thought it was contemporaneous real time but it was

Flash-Eternity....

{#Notworthy}


Beanie

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 9:37am

 Sean-E-Sean wrote:

...and how is this reaction different from your other reactions?...HA!...


 


Hey! Just because



Ok, yeah; you're right.
Sean-E-Sean

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 9:04am

 Beanie wrote:

Ok, honestly? As someone who has never seen this show? My reaction is:

"Duuuude!

Wait, what?"

 
...and how is this reaction different from your other reactions?...HA!...

Beanie

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 9:02am

 dmax wrote:

Already splained! The Dharma folks learned that whoever pushed the frozen donkey wheel would end up in Tunisia. Also, it's frickin cold down there.

So, they imported polar bears and trained them to push (we saw the training area in the Dharma camp, where Sawyer and Kate were imprisoned), so that the frozen wheel could be pushed by something strong that could tolerate the cold. 

That's why, in one episode, they find polar bear skeletons in Tunisia.

And none of this was laid out clearly for us, but was given in pieces. It's one of the examples I use when I argue/hope that they've known the plot all along. They gave us the polar bear in season one, but didn't explain it, obliquely, for a few seasons. 

 


Ok, honestly? As someone who has never seen this show? My reaction is:

"Duuuude!

Wait, what?"
kurtster

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 8:57am

 swell_sailor wrote:
My sense was that this final episode was about Jacks death. His father said something like "there is no now here." He also said these people died before and after Jack. (or something like that)

So, they weren't necessarily all dead yet. (can you say yet when there is no now?) Death is parallel to life. Those who left the island on the plane really did leave. Ben and Hurley stayed to protect the island. 

The final meeting at the church was Jack accepting his death and being joined by the most significant people in his life. Some were dead. Some were yet to die. We were seeing them in their parallel existence in death. 

Does that make sense?


 
That makes perfect sense explained as you have.  Guess I needed to have it articulated by someone else. 

Thanks for that.

swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 6:45am

 gandalfbmg wrote:
What happened (on the island), happened. They died when they died on the 'island timeline', so Boone, Shannon, Libby, Charlie, Locke, Sayid, Jin, Sun, and finally Jack exactly as we saw them die. Kate, Sawyer, Claire, Aaron, Desmond, etc, even Hurley and Ben guarding the island... They lived on and died when it was their time. Christian said to Jack at the end: everyone dies. some died already, and some much later on. But since time doesn't matter in 'sideways world', it was just the holding tank for all their souls until they could 'awaken' and thus find each other again and 'move on' together.

 
I guess you beat me to it. That was essentially my take as well
 


swell_sailor

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 6:43am

My sense was that this final episode was about Jacks death. His father said something like "there is no now here." He also said these people died before and after Jack. (or something like that)

So, they weren't necessarily all dead yet. (can you say yet when there is no now?) Death is parallel to life. Those who left the island on the plane really did leave. Ben and Hurley stayed to protect the island. 

The final meeting at the church was Jack accepting his death and being joined by the most significant people in his life. Some were dead. Some were yet to die. We were seeing them in their parallel existence in death. 

Does that make sense?

 
kurtster wrote:
 not-a-fish wrote: (way back when)

Pretty much spot on. 

The ending was good, far better than many shows that have gone out with a planned ending.  It was a great ride and worth another look from beginning to end.  This truly was a trip down the rabbit hole.  About the only thing I'm still wondering about is exactly when they all died ? 

Did they survive the crash and die when Juliet exploded the bomb ?  Or did the plane go down intact with all aboard, cause there was an episode where the plane was found intact on the ocean floor ?

What ever the case, I really enjoyed watching a great adventure and was totally able to suspend disbelief and take it at face value as it unfolded.  I'm glad it got its full run and do not regret investing my time following the show.
 

gandalfbmg

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Posted: May 24, 2010 - 6:42am

 kurtster wrote:
 not-a-fish wrote: (way back when)

Pretty much spot on. 

The ending was good, far better than many shows that have gone out with a planned ending.  It was a great ride and worth another look from beginning to end.  This truly was a trip down the rabbit hole.  About the only thing I'm still wondering about is exactly when they all died ? 

Did they survive the crash and die when Juliet exploded the bomb ?  Or did the plane go down intact with all aboard, cause there was an episode where the plane was found intact on the ocean floor ?

What ever the case, I really enjoyed watching a great adventure and was totally able to suspend disbelief and take it at face value as it unfolded.  I'm glad it got its full run and do not regret investing my time following the show.
 


What happened (on the island), happened. They died when they died on the 'island timeline', so Boone, Shannon, Libby, Charlie, Locke, Sayid, Jin, Sun, and finally Jack exactly as we saw them die. Kate, Sawyer, Claire, Aaron, Desmond, etc, even Hurley and Ben guarding the island... They lived on and died when it was their time. Christian said to Jack at the end: everyone dies. some died already, and some much later on. But since time doesn't matter in 'sideways world', it was just the holding tank for all their souls until they could 'awaken' and thus find each other again and 'move on' together.
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