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Tech & Science - Manbird - Oct 20, 2021 - 6:17pm
 
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Joe Biden - westslope - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:28pm
 
Solar / Wind / Geothermal / Efficiency Energy - Blackbirds - Oct 20, 2021 - 3:13pm
 
Way Cool Video - oldviolin - Oct 20, 2021 - 3:10pm
 
Australia has Disappeared - haresfur - Oct 20, 2021 - 2:48pm
 
The Obituary Page - Red_Dragon - Oct 20, 2021 - 2:28pm
 
COVID-19 - haresfur - Oct 20, 2021 - 2:28pm
 
China - R_P - Oct 20, 2021 - 12:58pm
 
Name My Band - Red_Dragon - Oct 20, 2021 - 12:55pm
 
- PUNS - POLICE - oldviolin - Oct 20, 2021 - 12:02pm
 
Best.Idea.Ever. - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 20, 2021 - 11:32am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - ColdMiser - Oct 20, 2021 - 10:00am
 
Into the Future - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 9:11am
 
Classical Music - R_P - Oct 20, 2021 - 9:07am
 
Things You Thought Today - steeler - Oct 20, 2021 - 7:46am
 
Counting with Pictures - yuel - Oct 20, 2021 - 7:03am
 
Sweet horrible irony. - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:35am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - Coaxial - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:32am
 
The Future is here! - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:21am
 
And the good news is.... - miamizsun - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:00am
 
That's good advice - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 3:19am
 
Anti-War - haresfur - Oct 19, 2021 - 10:26pm
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Oct 19, 2021 - 7:57pm
 
Republican Party - Red_Dragon - Oct 19, 2021 - 6:23pm
 
Trump - Steely_D - Oct 19, 2021 - 4:51pm
 
Nuclear power - saviour or scourge? - miamizsun - Oct 19, 2021 - 2:22pm
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Oct 19, 2021 - 12:33pm
 
2020 Elections - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 11:30am
 
More reggae, less Marley please - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 10:43am
 
songs that ROCK! - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 9:52am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 8:50am
 
What is the meaning of this? - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 8:41am
 
Oh GOD, they're GAY! - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 8:16am
 
Waste Time At Work - miamizsun - Oct 19, 2021 - 8:06am
 
Evolution! - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 6:59am
 
Poetry - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 6:28am
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - GeneP59 - Oct 19, 2021 - 6:25am
 
Baseball, anyone? - GeneP59 - Oct 19, 2021 - 6:12am
 
Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - GeneP59 - Oct 19, 2021 - 6:05am
 
The War On You - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 4:57am
 
Automotive Lust - haresfur - Oct 18, 2021 - 9:58pm
 
Philly - oldviolin - Oct 18, 2021 - 5:50pm
 
Lyrics that strike a chord today... - Lazy8 - Oct 18, 2021 - 5:10pm
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Oct 18, 2021 - 5:28am
 
RightWingNutZ - R_P - Oct 17, 2021 - 4:22pm
 
What did you have for dinner? - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 3:56pm
 
Dreams - Tales from your sleep - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 2:51pm
 
If not RP, what are you listening to right now? - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 1:52pm
 
Share a Website you love or hate… - Steely_D - Oct 17, 2021 - 1:50pm
 
Outstanding Covers - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 1:46pm
 
World Music - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 1:38pm
 
What are you afraid of? - Antigone - Oct 17, 2021 - 8:18am
 
More of Editors - TheKing2 - Oct 17, 2021 - 8:00am
 
Have you planned your Halloween costume yet?? - miamizsun - Oct 17, 2021 - 6:32am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Oct 16, 2021 - 7:52pm
 
True Confessions - Red_Dragon - Oct 16, 2021 - 4:49pm
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - haresfur - Oct 16, 2021 - 3:54pm
 
Live Music - R_P - Oct 16, 2021 - 3:10pm
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - Red_Dragon - Oct 16, 2021 - 1:28pm
 
Oregon - politics - westslope - Oct 16, 2021 - 9:24am
 
How To Be Politically Correct, A Primer - miamizsun - Oct 16, 2021 - 7:49am
 
Regarding dogs - Antigone - Oct 16, 2021 - 5:20am
 
Great Old Songs You Rarely Hear Anymore - KurtfromLaQuinta - Oct 15, 2021 - 8:26pm
 
Apps turning itself on at night!night! - jarro - Oct 15, 2021 - 6:16pm
 
What Did You See Today? - Antigone - Oct 15, 2021 - 3:37pm
 
Britain - davidrsim - Oct 15, 2021 - 12:12pm
 
Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - oldviolin - Oct 15, 2021 - 12:09pm
 
Get the Quote - primm - Oct 15, 2021 - 11:48am
 
Democratic Party - westslope - Oct 15, 2021 - 8:03am
 
Rolling Stones - sirdroseph - Oct 15, 2021 - 3:18am
 
BillyGee's Greatest Segues - ScottN - Oct 14, 2021 - 8:31pm
 
Taxes, Taxes, Taxes (and Taxes) - islander - Oct 14, 2021 - 4:17pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » The Obituary Page Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 60, 61, 62  Next
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Red_Dragon

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Posted: Oct 20, 2021 - 2:28pm

 haresfur wrote:


Soft serve of course. No one is happy about the hard truth


That's the trouble with the world, I tell ya.
haresfur

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2021 - 2:22pm

 oldviolin wrote:

lol. Soft serve or no?




Soft serve of course. No one is happy about the hard truth
oldviolin

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 20, 2021 - 1:00am

 islander wrote:


According to the signs I followed, I should be on the trail of Ice cream and margaritas. If there happens to be truth along the way, we'll pick some up. 

lol. Soft serve or no?


islander

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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 9:51pm

 oldviolin wrote:


And last, if Trump hates him, he must have been on the trail of finding his way to truth. After all, isn't that what we're all trying to do? Otherwise...



According to the signs I followed, I should be on the trail of Ice cream and margaritas. If there happens to be truth along the way, we'll pick some up. 
oldviolin

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 7:14pm

 kcar wrote:
 Red_Dragon wrote:While the Mintwood article is interesting, it's not clear how much influence the State Dept's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR)  had. The piece also does not make clear what evidence the INR had to make its assessments that many points of Powell's speech (in draft at the time of the INR report) were "weak." As I write below, the US intelligence community (16 agencies) had published a National Intelligence Estimate stating that Iraq had WMDs. 
 
Check out this 2016 Frontline interview with Powell for his take on the speech and the conditions he worked under. He was given about 4 days by the White House to prepare for the UN speech. President GW Bush had already made up his mind to invade Iraq and had obtained Congressional approval to do so. There were MANY people in Congress who thought there was sufficient evidence and cause to invade btw. The White House had given Powell a speech to use (IIRC prepared by Cheney's staff) that Powell thought was wholly inadequate and filled with claims that "did not track."  I don't know if Powell read or considered the INR assessment of the points of his speech in its draft state. Powell said he felt comfortable drafting a new speech based on the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's apparent WMD programs as well as his consultations with the CIA about the NIE in the four days before the UN speech.  Powell went to the UN to gain support from the UN member states for possible invasion but mostly to pressure Iraq to allow UN inspections for WMDs and thus PREVENT war. Powell persuaded Bush to go to the UN because he knew Iraq could be a quagmire for occupying US troops. Powell used the "Pottery Barn rule" analogy to persuade Bush: if you break it (invade Iraq), you own it.  Powell's words, from the Frontline interview linked to above: 

You have to remember that at the time I gave the speech on Feb. 5, the president had already made this decision for military action. The dice had been tossed. That’s what we were going to do. The Congress had passed a resolution three months before that speech that essentially gave the president the authorization to do it. Overwhelmingly they voted for it, and it was on the basis of that National Intelligence Estimate. The president had been using these very significant points about biological vans and chemical weapons in his speeches and in the State of the Union address. There was really nothing in my speech that hadn’t already been covered in the State of the Union or other speeches.

The reason I went to the U.N. is because we needed now to put the case before the entire international community in a powerful way, and that’s what I did that day.

Of course walking into that room is always a daunting experience, but I had been there before. And we had projectors and all sorts of technology to help us make the case. And that’s what I did. I made the case with the director of central intelligence sitting behind me. He and his team had vouched for everything in it. We didn’t make up anything. We threw out a lot of stuff that was not double- and triple-sourced, because I knew the importance of this.

When I was through, I felt pretty good about it. I thought we had made the case, and there was pretty good reaction to it for a few weeks. And then suddenly, the CIA started to let us know that the case was falling apart — parts of the case were falling apart. It was deeply disturbing to me and to the president, to all of us, and to the Congress, because they had voted on the basis of that information. And 16 intelligence agencies had agreed to it, with footnotes. None of the footnotes took away their agreement.


Powell put his trust in the US intelligence community and it failed him. The intelligence community had been under tremendous pressure to link Saddam to WMDs and Al Qaeda and thus justify invasion. Cheney was the leader of that. 

In slight defense of Cheney, I'll note that I saw another Frontline special that shed light on Cheney's thinking. Cheney was SecDef during the Gulf War and was deeply shocked by the post-war revelation that Saddam had a well-advanced nuclear weapons program. The US intelligence community did not know about this at all IIRC. The memory of that revelation and the failure of President GW Bush and VP Cheney's administration to prevent 9/11 (despite CIA Director Tenet's frantic warnings during the spring and summer of 2001) led Cheney to wrongly believe Saddam was cooperating with Al Qaeda and presented a viable post-9/11 threat to the US. 

 

 
Perhaps relative to this, here's what an op/ed from toward the end of '04 had to say upon his anticipated
(somewhat disillusioned) departure from The Bush Administration as Secretary Of State for a second term...

sorry. Dont know how to do a proper link:

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/the-truth-about-colin-powell/

This one somewhat more critical from '08.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/10/powells-cautionary-tale/307099/

And last, if Trump hates him, he must have been on the trail of finding his way to truth. After all, isn't that what we're all trying to do? Otherwise...
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 6:07pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

While the Mintwood article is interesting, it's not clear how much influence the State Dept's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR)  had. The piece also does not make clear what evidence the INR had to make its assessments that many points of Powell's speech (in draft at the time of the INR report) were "weak." As I write below, the US intelligence community (16 agencies) had published a National Intelligence Estimate stating that Iraq had WMDs. 
 
Check out this 2016 Frontline interview with Powell for his take on the speech and the conditions he worked under. He was given about 4 days by the White House to prepare for the UN speech. President GW Bush had already made up his mind to invade Iraq and had obtained Congressional approval to do so. There were MANY people in Congress who thought there was sufficient evidence and cause to invade btw. The White House had given Powell a speech to use (IIRC prepared by Cheney's staff) that Powell thought was wholly inadequate and filled with claims that "did not track." 

I don't know if Powell read or considered the INR assessment of the points of his speech in its draft state. Powell said he felt comfortable drafting a new speech based on the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's apparent WMD programs as well as his consultations with the CIA about the NIE in the four days before the UN speech. 

Powell went to the UN to gain support from the UN member states for possible invasion but mostly to pressure Iraq to allow UN inspections for WMDs and thus PREVENT war. Powell persuaded Bush to go to the UN because he knew Iraq could be a quagmire for occupying US troops. Powell used the "Pottery Barn rule" analogy to persuade Bush: if you break it (invade Iraq), you own it. 

Powell's words, from the Frontline interview linked to above: 

You have to remember that at the time I gave the speech on Feb. 5, the president had already made this decision for military action. The dice had been tossed. That’s what we were going to do. The Congress had passed a resolution three months before that speech that essentially gave the president the authorization to do it. Overwhelmingly they voted for it, and it was on the basis of that National Intelligence Estimate. The president had been using these very significant points about biological vans and chemical weapons in his speeches and in the State of the Union address. There was really nothing in my speech that hadn’t already been covered in the State of the Union or other speeches.

The reason I went to the U.N. is because we needed now to put the case before the entire international community in a powerful way, and that’s what I did that day.

Of course walking into that room is always a daunting experience, but I had been there before. And we had projectors and all sorts of technology to help us make the case. And that’s what I did. I made the case with the director of central intelligence sitting behind me. He and his team had vouched for everything in it. We didn’t make up anything. We threw out a lot of stuff that was not double- and triple-sourced, because I knew the importance of this.

When I was through, I felt pretty good about it. I thought we had made the case, and there was pretty good reaction to it for a few weeks. And then suddenly, the CIA started to let us know that the case was falling apart — parts of the case were falling apart. It was deeply disturbing to me and to the president, to all of us, and to the Congress, because they had voted on the basis of that information. And 16 intelligence agencies had agreed to it, with footnotes. None of the footnotes took away their agreement.


Powell put his trust in the US intelligence community and it failed him. The intelligence community had been under tremendous pressure to link Saddam to WMDs and Al Qaeda and thus justify invasion. Cheney was the leader of that. 

In slight defense of Cheney, I'll note that I saw another Frontline special that shed light on Cheney's thinking. Cheney was SecDef during the Gulf War and was deeply shocked by the post-war revelation that Saddam had a well-advanced nuclear weapons program. The US intelligence community did not know about this at all IIRC. The memory of that revelation and the failure of President GW Bush and VP Cheney's administration to prevent 9/11 (despite CIA Director Tenet's frantic warnings during the spring and summer of 2001) led Cheney to wrongly believe Saddam was cooperating with Al Qaeda and presented a viable post-9/11 threat to the US. 


Ohmsen

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 8:22am

 oldviolin wrote:
LOL. Don't get bogged down in my sediment. Wait, I mean sentiment!  I can master disaster with but a thought; often misunderstood...
{#Wink}

Wasn't even taking it personal. Love, honey...  
oldviolin

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 8:19am

 Ohmsen wrote:
 oldviolin wrote:

It means I missed my calling and rather than think for myself I should defer to all things demonstrably toothsome...



At that young age, I was torn und unwissend, as all young men of the age are, I guess. Finally decided to consciencE obJect. 
For me, it was seeing my Grandma, perhaps living with her... the lady who raised me by the sea (where I live now), or follow closer ideals - staying near parents and girlfriend. Makes me an Angsthase, Pfeffernase?

 
LOL. Don't get bogged down in my sediment. Wait, I mean sentiment!  I can master disaster with but a thought; often misunderstood...{#Wink}
Ohmsen

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 8:06am

 oldviolin wrote:

It means I missed my calling and rather than think for myself I should defer to all things demonstrably toothsome...



At that young age, I was torn und unwissend, as all young men of the age are, I guess. Finally decided to consciencE obJect. 
For me, it was seeing my Grandma, perhaps living with her... the lady who raised me by the sea (where I live now), or follow closer ideals - staying near parents and girlfriend. Makes me an Angsthase, Pfeffernase?

oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 7:59am

 Ohmsen wrote:
oldviolin wrote:
Gosh I should have read Mintpress News for the true scoop. My bad...

What's your suggestion? Not sooo much differing from the MSM, are they?
MintPress News is an ostensibly left-leaning American online news website founded and edited by Mnar Adley (née, Muhawesh) which was launched in January 2012 and employs many Russia Today affiliates. (Wikipedia)
They could be more American in distributing 'sensitive issues'? ...sensitivity and all, remembering the phalanx appearing in the western media back then, to me C.P. appeared much less demonized (i.e. obsessed by demons), as compared to others brightly shining in the limelight, too.

*Cheers* bud.

 
It means I missed my calling and rather than think for myself I should defer to all things demonstrably toothsome...

Ohmsen

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 7:42am

oldviolin wrote:
Gosh I should have read Mintpress News for the true scoop. My bad...

What's your suggestion? Not sooo much differing from the MSM, are they?
MintPress News is an ostensibly left-leaning American online news website founded and edited by Mnar Adley (née, Muhawesh) which was launched in January 2012 and employs many Russia Today affiliates. (Wikipedia)
They could be more American in distributing 'sensitive issues'? ...sensitivity and all, remembering the phalanx appearing in the western media back then, to me C.P. appeared much less demonized (i.e. obsessed by demons) than others, brightly shining in the limelight. Rather he seemed being 'played' through the chain of command. Of course, todays' wokes won't even sense the slightest smell of this, due to a lack of sensivity, plus their huge in historical experience, it seems to me.

*Cheers* bud.

oldviolin

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Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 7:30am

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
Gosh I should have read Mintpress News for the true scoop. My bad...
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 6:28am

Colin Powell’s Own Staff Had Warned Him Against His War Lies
Ohmsen

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Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 5:43am

 haresfur wrote:

I don't see how Powell was misled unless he more incompetent than I believe he was. The Department of Energy is the US agency that deals with nuclear non-proliferation and you heard nothing attributed to them in the lead up to the war. I think it is clear they didn't believe Iraq had an active nuclear weapon development program of any consequence and were sidelined. 

No, he didn't cause the war, but he was trusted by even Democrats and he squandered that trust. I expect he knew full well that was going to be the end of his political career. 


Colin Powell will be most remembered for the act he most regretted, his 2003 presentation to the UN security council laying out US evidence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, which turned out not to exist.


(Source)
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 2:20am

 kcar wrote:


Powell was misled about the intelligence but he should have known that his case on WMDs was circumstantial. I can't remember whether Powell supported invading Iraq instead of pressing for inspections. 

However, Powell only contributed to war with Iraq. He did not cause it and wasn't even a primary cause of it. Powell provided a fig leaf of respectability and some hazy rationale to the war. Dick Cheney was far more responsible, ignoring the American intelligence community's assessment that Saddam likely did not have WMD stockpiles or a working alliance with Al Qaeda. Instead, Cheney told lie after lie to push the US into war with Iraq. He was also one of the major promoters of our torturing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. 


I don't see how Powell was misled unless he more incompetent than I believe he was. The Department of Energy is the US agency that deals with nuclear non-proliferation and you heard nothing attributed to them in the lead up to the war. I think it is clear they didn't believe Iraq had an active nuclear weapon development program of any consequence and were sidelined. 

No, he didn't cause the war, but he was trusted by even Democrats and he squandered that trust. I expect he knew full well that was going to be the end of his political career. 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 10:06pm

 islander wrote:

We are all very complex animals, and often defined by those acts most at odds with our character.  As you said, he was a soldier at heart, so he followed orders. He did a lot of good things, that that one speech and all that followed (because of the speech and the integrity of the speaker) are on him. It was a mistake, and he owns the bodies on all sides of it.  


Powell was misled about the intelligence but he should have known that his case on WMDs was circumstantial. I can't remember whether Powell supported invading Iraq instead of pressing for inspections. 

However, Powell only contributed to war with Iraq. He did not cause it and wasn't even a primary cause of it. Powell provided a fig leaf of respectability and some hazy rationale to the war. Dick Cheney was far more responsible, ignoring the American intelligence community's assessment that Saddam likely did not have WMD stockpiles or a working alliance with Al Qaeda. Instead, Cheney told lie after lie to push the US into war with Iraq. He was also one of the major promoters of our torturing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/po...

The disturbing thing is that back in 1994 Cheney said in an interview that invading Iraq after the Gulf War would have been disastrous and would have led to a quagmire. 

https://www.chicagotribune.com...

https://www.salon.com/2014/07/...

Yet after pushing for an invasion based on bad intelligence and leading to disaster for the US, Cheney insisted that invading and controlling Iraq was the right thing to do. 

https://time.com/2919765/dick-...


Red_Dragon

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Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 6:23pm

 islander wrote:

We are all very complex animals, and often defined by those acts most at odds with our character.  As you said, he was a soldier at heart, so he followed orders. He did a lot of good things, that that one speech and all that followed (because of the speech and the integrity of the speaker) are on him. It was a mistake, and he owns the bodies on all sides of it.  


Ayup.
islander

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Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 6:20pm

 haresfur wrote:


It's a shame.  

I truly believe Powell always tried to act with integrity. I think he failed in one supremely important instance and attribute that to him being too military for that moment as Secretary of State. I cannot forget that, even with his death but recognise his greatness in other areas. I guess that's the same as one of my other American heroes, Harry Truman. I sadly accept the bombing of Hiroshima (my father probably would have been part of the Tokyo invasion), but think Nagasaki was unnecessary. No one will ever know.

We are all very complex animals, and often defined by those acts most at odds with our character.  As you said, he was a soldier at heart, so he followed orders. He did a lot of good things, that that one speech and all that followed (because of the speech and the integrity of the speaker) are on him. It was a mistake, and he owns the bodies on all sides of it.  
GeneP59

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Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 3:57pm

 oldviolin wrote:

My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama was ever heard of in the national politic. How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...
 
Yes he would of had my vote. A classy and honorable human being and a great leader of men. 

To General Powell, one of the few men of history  I would have liked to have met.
 {#Cheers}
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 3:30pm

 oldviolin wrote:

My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama was ever heard of in the national politic. How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...


It's a shame.  

I truly believe Powell always tried to act with integrity. I think he failed in one supremely important instance and attribute that to him being too military for that moment as Secretary of State. I cannot forget that, even with his death but recognise his greatness in other areas. I guess that's the same as one of my other American heroes, Harry Truman. I sadly accept the bombing of Hiroshima (my father probably would have been part of the Tokyo invasion), but think Nagasaki was unnecessary. No one will ever know.
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